Ep. 060: How to "Play Big" in Life & Biz w/ Tara Mohr
Email isn't dead and Brenna is going to teach you how to make the most of it. Not only can email be more more simple than figuring out social media, but when you nurture your audience with authenticity and The time is now for us to play bigger in our lives and businesses. We have so many gifts, talents, and strengths that we can use to change our world for the better. But we've been conditioned to play small. We've bought the lie of self-doubt. We've wrongly believed we aren't qualified enough to do the work we want to do. In this episode I talk with "Playing Big" author Tara Mohr about how we can get out of our own way and live our brilliance.
BIO:
Tara Mohr is an expert on women’s leadership and wellbeing. She is the author of Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak Up, Create, and Lead, and creator of the Playing Big leadership program for women.
LINKS:
Website: taramohr.com
Playing Big online courses: taramohr.com/courses
Instagram: @tarasophia.mohr
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tarasmohr/
OTHER LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED TODAY:
Get my free No-Sleaze Sales Method delivered right to your inbox: Get Instant Access Here
-
Erika Tebbens: I am absolutely thrilled to bring you this episode today because I interview the woman whose book completely changed my life a few years ago.
And initially I was just going to record an episode talking about the book and then I was actually able to get her to come on. So this is going to be way better then you just hearing me ramble on and on about it. So our guest today is Tara Mohr, who is an expert on women's leadership and well being.
She's the author of playing big practical wisdom for women who want to speak up, create and lead and she's also the creator of the Playing Big Leadership Program for Women. So you can find more about her and, uh, follow her on Instagram and, um, go check out her website at taramoore.com. So it's T-A-R-A-M-O-H-R dot com.
And then you'll definitely want to read her book Playing Big. So I read this a few years ago. We talk a little bit about in the episode, how I came to find it and her course that I joined after I had read it. Once I found out that she had a course, but really in truly, I feel like it was fate. I was meant to read this book when I did, and I had the great fortune of being able to meet her in person.
And that is why I was able to hook up with her and actually get her to come and speak with me. So you can hear it directly from her. I feel so much gratitude for the fact that she was willing to be generous with her time and share her knowledge and wisdom on the, Sell It Sister Podcast. And I just know you are going to get so, so, so much out of this episode.
I actually bumped this up like three or four weeks in my schedule because I was like, nope, this needs to get out now. The time is now, this is really, really, really important. Uh, there is something that she says in the episode, and I just want to reiterate it uh, at the top she says the amount of suffering in the world is always exactly equal to our capacity to heal that suffering.
And in between when we recorded this and now there is unfortunately even more suffering. So, I want to recommit to playing big, playing bigger. I want to encourage all of you to do the same because we have within us the ability to do good in the world and we just need to get out of our own way.
Lastly, before we dive in to the good stuff. I just want to say, uh, I think there's a few times times in here where I specifically say like women in business or women entrepreneurs and as you know, from the intro that does not just mean, uh, you know, cis-gender, uh, heteronormative women, right?
So this, uh, this show is for CIS women, transwomen, non-binary folks, gender fluid folks, anyone, right? So, and I, and I emphasize that because of the fact that how we are conditioned in society as anyone other than a cisgender heterosexual, white male, right? We like any, anyone who falls outside of that, uh, of those labels has really been conditioned in many different ways to play small and to minimize and to doubt ourselves.
So I just wanted to, to call that out, uh, because it's, it's something that is important to me and I just want to say that I recognize that, uh, it is far more than just CIS women who are, who feel the pressure to be smaller than their potential, um, to not strive to their full potential, their full potential.
Um, and in many cases, when they do actually encounter a lot of danger and, um, a lot of, of harm. And so I just want to be, uh, really mindful of that and, and sensitive to that. But, uh, with all of that being said, I know that we are brilliant and talented and empathetic and compassionate and strong and resilient and wise and all the good things, and we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to are each other. We owe it to, uh, the next generations of people coming after us, you know, our children, our grandchildren, etcetera, to really show up and, uh, let our gifts shine through and do the work that we are meant to do. So, now I will stop rambling and get into the episode. And if you read the book or if you've read the book, please let me know.
Let's talk about it. I would love it. And now onto the episode.
Hi Tara! Thank you. So, so, so much for being on the, Sell It Sister podcast with me, I have been excitedly awaiting this and I, I know I have so many people who are already like, I can't wait for this episode to come out. So thank you for being here.
Tara Mohr: Thank you for having me. I'm delighted.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, so, little quick backstory before we dive in, because people were like, how the heck are you talking to her and stuff? So I actually got to meet you a couple of years ago, like in your hometown and I had flown out there for a mastermind retreat all the way from New York.
And I brought my copy of the book, which I have right here. Um, and, because I, I knew I was going to be meeting you that night at dinner and I brought it so that you could sign it. Cause it totally changed my life. And my flights were delayed and I was so nervous. I was like, I'm going to get a, get there to meet you late.
And I'm like, yeah, it's just so funny. And I remember I like pulled up to the restaurant and like before even said hi to my like mastermind people, I was like, hang on, let me get all this stuff. I need her to sign it. We got to take a picture, like the whole thing. So yeah, that was, that was great. But then I got the immense joy of talking with you that night over dinner and it was just, it was so lovely to finally meet the person who had such an impact on my life. So yeah, like it was just, it was wonderful, beautiful fate.
Tara Mohr: I think so many things about that story that are worth underlining because when I got your invitation, I very much remember that conversation too. And I remembered your sincerity and your, you know, I just felt like.
Oh, like you were speaking from the heart and, and I was so touched by the impact the book had on you. And I felt indebted to you because you have been spreading the word about it, but it's a great example of like all those choices, like the choice to be in community with other women to go to a mastermind like that, right? Like the choice to invest in yourself in that way. Um, the, the, you know know, the women's communities like that of the hybrid are my coworking space, which is how I knew the person who was doing the mastermind and then you also felt comfortable speaking up and, you know, bringing your book and all of those things can feel vulnerable and scary.
You know, I know when I am encountering someone whose work, I know really well and have to like go and say that it's scary, you know.
Erika Tebbens: It is.
Tara Mohr: Go say hello, say hello. And how do I get this out into one sentence. If the impact has been so huge, like all those things. So it's a beautiful testament to making those traces.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, thank you. I know I'm always like, Oh my gosh, I don't want to sound like a lunatic, but like, I, you know, want to, I don't want to like miss the opportunity to tell someone. So, yeah, and I, uh, I originally had read Playing Big in 2016, so I had a different business then, and I was going through some shifts and I used to listen to the lively show podcast all the time back then.
And that was where I first heard you on that interview. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this sounds wonderful. I got the book right away. I read it. I've like passed it around to different friends of mine and they loved it and I ended up in early 2017. When you opened up your Playing Big Course for enrollment, I joined, I did it.
I loved it, all of it. And I was thinking recently about how right around that time, I did a huge shift in my life. I let go of that other business. I started the business I had now. It was entirely different and super, super scary. Uh, and I kept thinking like, I really want to talk about this book. On my podcasts, because it was the book that really was the best springboard for me to do the leap, to do the big leap.
And, but then I was like, I want to actually hear from you and have you explain it a little bit more. So I would first love to know how you, when you think of Playing Big, how, like, what is your, you know, elevator speech for what Playing Big is, and also, how did you come to this work? Like it obviously took you a ton of time and research to write this book.
So why were you so compelled to do that?
Tara Mohr: Hmm, great. Okay. Maybe I'll start with that, that second one.
Erika Tebbens: Okay.
Tara Mohr: Uh, for me, even as a little girl, I was always noticing. The places that women's voices were missing, like we would go to religious services and it would be all guys up in front of the congregation or we're reading, you know, Old Testament stories,
and I'm like, what, how come all the women are just like a wife who gets killed at some point or the third wife? Like what, where are the women? So I was noticing that from a very young age and I felt pained by that from a very young age, partly because I think it made me personally feel. A little, like a stranger in a strange land.
Like I don't belong here. I, you know, we, we go to this congregation, but I guess people like me, aren't allowed to be in front of it or I go to school, but I guess we're never going to talk about someone like me in history class. So I was always aware of that. And I was really interested in women's issues and I was, you know, joining the women's empowerment club or whatever at school and you know what, wherever I could find those things, um, and at the same time, I was very interested in psychology and personal growth.
I grew up with a mom who, um, didn't have, uh, uh, training as a psychologist, but she had had her own like very chaotic and painful childhood and the way she had found her way out of it was like, I'm going to read Freud, and I'm going to read Carl Young, I'm going to read these psychology books and I'm going to try and understand the pain that happened in my family.
And I'm going to try and understand why people are doing the things they do. So she raised me literally with, I can remember coming home and saying, you know, this boy chased me on the playground today and he's a jerk. And she would say, well, what do you think is happening for him at home? That would cause him to chase another child.
Like when I was five, that's what she was saying. So I grew up with a very psychological lens for looking at the world and I wanted to work in that realm, but I saw the path of being a therapist and thought will that feels a little lonely to me. I'm a huge extrovert. I also love the arts and performing so that I know I just don't want to sit in a room one to one with someone.
And so later in my life, actually I worked in the nonprofit world. I was very, always very interested in things with a social mission. So I was working in the nonprofit world. Then I went to get an MBA where I sort of had a non-profit and social sector focus, but there I was exposed to coaching because in the business world was starting to wake up to coaching.
And I saw these women who were coaches, and I just literally can remember it like. I remember seeing them walk across campus and it like looked like they had a spring in their step. This was like, Oh, they have a spring in their step. And they just looked lit up, you know? And then I thought, well, they're getting to talk to people about personal growth, but not in this way that's necessarily focused on the harder parts of life, but in this very exciting forward-looking way too, that really intrigued me and I kind of put that in my, like back pocket as a thought. And, um, and then I went to work in the nonprofit world and I worked for a large foundation that had $2 billion under management that was giving away, you know, from their endowment off of the $2 billion, working on really important social issues.
And I worked with all these amazing women colleagues and my boss was an amazing woman. And yet. At the executive table, it was all men pretty much. And so once I saw up close, wow, our organization is full of highly competent, hardworking diligent women and we're even doing all the right things, like we're following the instructions of getting the degree is and getting the good grades and doing good background research.
And then some guy will sweep into a meeting with an unformed opinion and declare it really confidently and then $3 million get invested in that direction when there's not even any data behind it.
That bothered me so much and it also made me feel like maybe this isn't my career path, because I I'm going to end up one of these over an overlooked and under-recognized women.
So that was happening. I was also missing my own creative self and my own woo-woo spiritual self that had kind of gotten stamped out by business school and all of that. So I thought, well, I'm going to just go explore coaching to get all of that back. Kind of for myself, it'll be like taking a personal growth workshop to take a coaching training.
Then I started coaching women on the side of my job, and I saw everyone's dealing with this sort of issue of being highly competent and brilliant but not seeing themselves as ready and not being heard in their workplace. So, I felt okay, I have to help my coaching clients achieve their goals, but my traditional coaching training didn't cover all of these issues.
That come up for women, especially in the imposter syndrome and the good girl habits and it just wasn't about that. So I really started to experiment with what would help my clients and that's what became then, the tools and the Playing Big Course, and then eventually the Playing Big Buck. Um, and for the women entrepreneurs , you know, listening, who are thinking about, I want to have my own body of work, or how do I develop thought leadership around something?
I really like for me, I really love that trajectory and I still use it of ,like, do the one-on-one work with people; see the patterns, you know, that's where you get your material and then teach larger groups or write about it because nothing can compare to the relevance and accuracy you can have if it's really coming out of that real one-on-one work, where you had to deliver a results for a person.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, I agree so, so much with that. That it's, it's really that like, uh, clarity comes through action when you get to experience it firsthand, and then you kind of realize like, Oh, I have this methodology or I have this framework or, Oh, this is a pattern or, yeah, I love that. So, in terms of Playing Big, if you're at, you know, if you're at a mixer, if you're at a networking event and someone's like, Tara, what the heck is Playing Big? What do you say back to them?
Tara Mohr: Well, I think I'm probably a testament for how far you can get in your career with no elevator pitch, because I still hate the idea of one. I don't know how to do it. I mean, really, and I even will complain to my husband. I'm like, however it is, I'm describing my work, like people basically walk away after I say one phrase about it, like, whatever you're saying is like a repellent.
It's like, I get no business, no interest, nothing from how I casually talk to people about it and I'm still not sure why. Um, so I have, I have yet to figure that one out, but to me, the essence of what Playing Big is really about is, um, how do we unlearn all the ways of self-censoring that just being a human in our culture and then on top of that, especially being a woman in our culture has caused us to, um, put on ourselves, how do we trust our own voices? How do we find out what's really, our callings are and go for them in order to contribute in the world. And so my, and my shorthand definition that I use in the book is Playing Big, is more, being more loyal to your dreams than to your fears. So what Playing Big means is different to each individual. It's not necessarily what looks big to others. It's your real dreams. And are you going for that?
It's living your life in such a way that you're not going to end up with regret. I didn't go for it.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Yeah, I, and that is definitely what resonated with me and I love that you said you don't have like a clear elevator pitch. Cause honestly I don't either and sometimes I'm like, I'll get all in my head about it and then I'm like, man, you know what I, whatever, it's fine. It doesn't really matter. I think that's good proof that like, you don't have to have all of these like marketing bells and whistles to actually be successful with the thing.
Cause I always change up what I say based on who I'm talking to is a man I'm like, I just do business consulting because they don't, they're not my target. I'm like, they're like, Oh, that's it. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So I love that. And I will say, um, that in all of that, in the working with people and like really recounting their stories in your book, for anyone listening who's like, Oh my gosh, I don't know if this is for me, because I don't want like another, like self-help or personal growth book or, you know, is it super woo-woo? Like it's, it's really not like it was honestly reading people's real stories, uh, real women's stories who are like far more well-educated than I am more traditionally successful than I am and knowing that they were still struggling with these similar things. I was like at this juncture where I really was like, should I go to grad school for business to be like, to do the work I do now? Right. Or should I do these graduate level certificate programs? And then reading this book, I was like, Oh no, that's just a trap.
Like that is a trap that women fall into, and I actually am really qualified, and if these other women who are on paper smarter and more successful than me still think that they need more certificates or more schooling or more permission than like, I will never be able to get to that point. And if I'm never able to get to that point, why should I not just start right now?
And that was huge, huge, like, I mean, literally some of your case studies in there I'm like, well shit. If she thinks that she's not qualified, like we're, the rest of us are just screwed.
Tara Mohr: I love the point you're making there because it's so true that when we, when we see the women that we're sure have every reason to be confident when we understand their self-doubt, it changes everything. And like, even recently at the height, when the Highbury had hosted Diane Von Furstenberg and she came and did a chat with everyone and she said, Oh, I would say, you know, about two days out of the week, I wake up just thinking I'm a total loser, you know, a two out of seven.
And it's like how in the world? And that's even, so not only different from how others see her, it's so different from how she's living each day of her life, right? So that was yet another one. But yeah, I mean the, the imposter syndrome, the, I mean, I don't like to use the term usually imposter syndrome because it conveys it's a syndrome as if some people have it and some people don't and as far as I can tell, all, all of us have it, um, about some domain or another. Um, but yeah, and now, even since I wrote the book, there was a study showing that. 45% of entry level junior level women in corporate America would say they feel, you know, some moderate level of confidence. And when you ask executive level women, 55% do, which is not a very big difference, right?
So that means you only have a, basically a one in 10 chance of your confidence level changing. If you've gone from entry level to executive in corporate America, and there's reasons for that, you know, there's reasons that have to do with what, what self-doubt actually comes from, which is obviously not the facts and the data.
Um, so yeah, but it's powerful to, it's really powerful to realize it.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And that, that is really grim. And I'm glad that you brought that up because part of why I really wanted to get this interview out now is, I mean, yes, we're dealing with a global pandemic and that is really awful. But I think that what is interesting about it is atleast in America, or especially in America, it's really bringing to light a lot of inequities and a lot of really dire situations that we've just been sort of, I don't know, turning like a blind eye to, or putting band-aids on that are really exacerbated.
And I feel very deeply that especially like among women, we already have the solutions. Like we're just way too scared to say, you know what? I am actually smart and talented. And I think I have some really good ideas and I think I should share those ideas and I think I should run for office or start this company or do whatever.
But this shit, this playing small just really gets in the way and that makes me feel like, like this needs to more women need to know about this now and like commit to playing bigger because I almost feel like we, we cannot wait any longer. Like we are at a crossroads that is just so bleak and I, and I'm deeply like in my gut, I'm like, I know that we already can fix this and it might, it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be overnight, but like, it will never happen if we continuously get, you know, keep getting caught up in this like mental garbage that is keeping us that is really holding us back.
Tara Mohr: Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my beliefs is that the amount of suffering in the world is always exactly equal to our capacity, our latent capacity to heal that suffering. Meaning it's actually in terms of the potential we have and the need we have, those are always in balance. So when you're seeing a whole lot of unaddressed, unhealed, suffering, or unmet needs in the world, that's showing you how much of our capacity to heal it and meet those needs we're not using, there's a lot of latent capacity and I think that women, the solutions that women bring, yes, we're leveraging our education and we're leveraging our know how, but a lot of what we bring it's comes from who we are, right? It comes from our natural intelligence. It comes from the gifts we have out of our personality, our strengths, who we are, it comes from our vision.
It comes from our hearts and our culture has totally indoctrinated us in the message that the value, the only value we can bring comes from the degree we got or the expertise that we have, all this stuff that we had to absorb from the outside, right? And so it's really hard for women to say, I can see how the care and passion and desire to help an idea that, you know, just flew in from last week, it's a really great idea, flew in from wherever in the cosmos. I can see how that, I can trust that. I can trust the value of that, because that's not the message we've been given, but I think we really need to look at, you know, whose agenda is that, that we so distrust our natural passion and ideas and caring, and it comes up all the time.
You know, like I just got a question from someone who said, you know, I'm, I really want to start this social enterprise in sort of the, um, international development arena and she had some really relevant experience, but she was saying, I think I would have to go back and get a business degree and a polysaccharide agree to do this.
And I, my question back is always, you know, do you have overwhelming evidence from the world? That that is the case, like have a hundred doors shut with the message to you? Sorry, honey, not until you get those two specific degrees. Of course, not like nobody ever has any evidence for that belief. Um, but it's a really pervasive one and it's a kind of comfort zone that we hide in because if we are always convincing of ourselves that we need the next degree or certification, we don't have to do this scary thing now.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, you don't have to put yourself out there and, and sell it really sell yourself and sell your idea. Yeah. That is it. Yeah. It really is so hard. And I think that in most cases, you know, obviously there are some things like that you legally have to be certified to do, but I feel like for so many things that is just not the case, we're just working off of assumptions, right? Yeah.
Tarah Mohr: Absolutely. Like if you want to perform brain surgery, definitely go get all the relevant documents. But I think we've really overemphasized kind of specialization and formal experties, and a lot of other areas where it's not, it's not needed. We can be generalists and do the thing really well and we might even be better as generalists because sometimes expertise. Um, causes us to have real blind spots too.
Erika Tebbens: Definitely. And I know, so the, the book kicks off with inner critic, which is so good and, and so worthwhile to, for people to read that part. But I know that now, like I feel like since I first encountered this, a yearbook was the first time I encountered inner critic.
I feel like now there's so much about inner critic, but what I don't ever hear a lot about is the next part, the inner mentor. And I think that that is really, really important because at the end of the day, like I know that that inner critic, that inner mean girl, she just never goes away like we're just hardwired. She's always going to be floating around somewhere but the inner mentor is so powerful. So I would love for you to explain that.
Tara Mohr: Yeah. Yeah. So the inner mentor is like the voice of wisdom that turns out we all have inside of us. And part of the reason I, I start off with inner critic is because we all recognize pretty quickly.
We all can say, Oh yeah, I know that voice of self-doubt. I know the voice, there is a voice in my head that's saying, you know, you got to lose 10 pounds before you do this. And you're terrible at that. And you know, you've never been good with money or whatever your says to you. So we recognize that pretty quickly, the inner mentor voice in us is a little harder to find.
And most of us are less acquainted with it, but there's a guided meditation that's in the book. Um, that comes from the Coaches Training Institute where I did my coaching training. Um, but you can get the audio of it. Um, on my website, we can put a link to it for listeners today. Um, and by going into a meditation and relaxing your body and moving into kind of a right brain space of more visual imagery, we can meet a sort of older, wiser version of ourselves.
And what so many people discover in doing that is that right there inside of them all along has been this. Um, kind of, uh, um, archetypal wise woman, like Joseph Campbell talks about we're in the acorn state, but we all have the oak tree we're meant to become. And within the acorn are all the instructions needed to become the oak tree.
And, and even though the acorn looks and is totally different from the oak tree, somehow the oak tree is inside the acorn, right? So that's how our inner mentor is with us. It's like a more fully developed, fully realized, authentic and calm and wise version of ourselves. And I think it's kind of the biggest secret is that we all walk around with our crazy and our uncertainties and our confusion and our overactive minds and yet right there, there actually is this totally other part of ourselves that often can see things really clearly when we'd otherwise feel confused, that is very calm about things our regular brain is anxious about. So we just have to learn how to access it, and once you have that vision of your oak tree, like what's who are, who, who are you really meant to become, then you can steer your life like, okay, is that, is that what my inner mentor would do? Is that bringing me closer to her reality? And it's a great criteria to make decisions by, right? Um, or, you know, in very practical ways I have to write this really difficult email.
How would she write it? Hm.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Or I'm choosing between two things, what would she choose or what gets me closer to her?
Yeah. Cause I think that there is a lot that is sold to us of what our future should look like, like I, like you said earlier about Playing Big, doesn't have to be the same for everyone and it doesn't even have to look like something very big and I think that even if your idea is like, I'm just gonna, you know, I don't know, rescue animals and live in like a very quaint house in a small town and just like foster kittens or something like that's awesome and it doesn't have to be. Super glamorous or posh or sparkly, like just do, do the thing that your soul kind of wants you to do.
Tara Mohr: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I always think about, and one of the early years of the course, we had a woman in the course who was working in a, in a big corporate job and she was in this tier where everyone in that tier of the company was competing for this one specific promotion that one person was going to get and she got it.
And it was a big deal. It was a big deal for her as a woman, as a woman of color to get it. And everyone was congratulating her and she thought about it for a few days and she decided not to take it. And she decided not to take it because she was in the middle of a project with her team that was a five-year arc. And they were like in year three and a half, and she was like, I want to see this project through, I care about it. I care about this team. And she also said, you know, my company has this up, up, up culture where everybody's vying for the next promotion and as a result, people move around a lot and it's destroying a lot of the value that we could bring as a company like it's not good. And she was in a very sort of competitive male dominated, you know, kind of situation.
And so that was also her critique, and I thought it was such a powerful kind of grounding and more, um, uh, in values that, you know, feel very connected to where, what, what women carry in the culture. Like I'm going to focus on relationship and real, the real results here, not the prestige and not the hierarchy.
And that was her playing big, her playing big was to turn down the promotion. Like it took so much courage and it wasn't just, it wasn't just an opting out of playing bait. It was her playing big because for her, that was her living by her values. And then of course, what happened a couple of years later, was she got picked for this even more senior plum role because she became known as someone who sees things through, and who's not just going for the next promotion, but as you know, really working by her values.
So it can look all kinds of ways, depending on what that individual woman's, um, dreams and values are and what really is the thing for her that takes courage.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, I love that you, uh, that you shared that specific story, because I think that, that, that is one of those hard things where we would think like, I am going to be so judged. If I, if I turn this down and people are going to be disappointed and they're going to think I'm really stupid or, you know, whatever.
And, uh, and I think it's, it's really. It's really hard. And that was very much around the time when I, um, first happened to read your book. I was in a point in my previous business where I had had a lot of success and I was checking all the boxes and I was doing what I thought was the right thing to do.
Like the, you know, the upward motion, like in, um, you know, like next ladders of success and I wasn't happy. And I felt really weird and really guilty for a long time, because I was like, there are people who would kill to be in the position that I am in. And should I just settle? Like, should I just be okay with where I am?
And I, I really feel like my inner mentor and, and like, I definitely, I try to tamp that voice down for still for a while afterwards, because I was terrified of like leaping and, and playing bigger. Uh, but I feel like ultimately my, my inner voice, my inner mentor was like, no, you will not, you will not be happy.
Like it's okay to walk away. It's okay if this is still other people's dream. It doesn't have to be your dream anymore. And that was, that was really big, but it was hard, and I will say there was a time in between where I was like, Oh no, no, I'm going to start this other businesses, other project, because I really didn't want to face what playing bigger meant for me.
I was still basing it off of what I thought would be acceptable, like just in general and what other people would find as acceptable. Um, and then, and ultimately I was like, no, I can't, like, I felt like I was living alive. So I, I really appreciate the inner mentor exercise.
Tara Mohr: Yeah. And you're also illustrating how when our, when we hear something like that from our inner mentor, we can really feel the truth and resonance of it, which is another part of what makes inner mentor so powerful because an outside person could say to us, trust yourself, honey. And maybe, maybe we could try and believe them, but we wouldn't feel it in our bones the possibility of that. And there's something about once we've gotten that sense of our inner mentor, then when we hear that guidance from her, we can really feel the truth of it. And it's not, it gives us enough to then take action from there.
Erika Tebbens: Definitely. And that is sort of an interesting segue into the like, like that woman with choosing to turn it down and possibly being judged is, you talk a lot about unhooking from praise and criticism.
Tara Mohr: Yeah.
Erika Tebbens: Which I really, really, really love. And I feel like even in the year, since I first read this and I went back and I was rereading, I feel like it is so relevant now because I mean, I know, so I'm like a words of affirmation person. So like, I'm, I mean, I love like, I love praise. I totally do, I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Um, just because of the, you know, my love language is words of affirmation, but, the criticism and all of the parts that you dig into in the book are they are so real. And I feel like now with like cancel culture, it is, it just amplified, like everything is so visible and you could so publicly screw up and have strangers all over, like from all over the world, telling you what an awful person you are.
So. Like, I just, I would love to like, hear your thoughts on that just because it has changed. And, um, and I totally highlighted, like you have stuff about the good girl, um, mentality, and that is only in the last, I would say maybe year or two, it's really a practice I've been working on because I have always been such a good girl.
Like even when I was doing bad things in high school, in college, I would present to the grownups in my life like, oh no, but I'm very good. Like, I'm checking all the boxes, I'm doing all the right things. Um, and yeah, only, only recently I've kind of just been like, you know what? It's like, I don't need to be that person anymore.
Like I can, I don't know if you, if you're into true crime or if he lives in the, the, my favorite murder podcast, but they have a phrase it's fuck politeness. And it usually it has to do with like, like women getting into bad, uncomfortable situations and not listening to their intuition and like reteaching women to fuck politeness, like for their own safety and protection and things like that.
But I feel like it kind of just encompasses everything. Like, I don't want to be that polite person anymore. If in being polite, I minimizing what I feel like is right for myself and right for the world.
Tarah Mohr: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what happened for me when I had just started in my coaching practice, like first I had one, one client came and she said, I really want to pursue my side project.
You know, this organization I'm trying to start that I'm really passionate about, but I just don't have enough time because my day job is so demanding and I need, you know, coaching to help me be accountable and figure out how to make more time. Like, okay, and then it became clear in the first session time, of course was not the issue.
Time is rarely the real issue and instead it was the thing that she wanted to start was going to be very controversial in her field. And she had worked in domestic violence prevention for a long time, and she had her own point of view about how to create services that would be more effective.
And she knew that a lot of her mentors even were going to be not like it, maybe be threatened by it. And that was terrifying. And it was especially terrifying to her because she had been the star student in her field, you know, like so many of us, she had been trying to do all the right things. And so now what did it mean? That work was going to be controversial? So that was like, Oh, that was interesting.
And then like the next week another client came along and she's like, I need you to help me with career transition because I've decided I don't like my industry and I'm, you know, leaving. And then when we got into it, it was like, well, actually I love most of the parts of my job, but, now that I'm this senior partner in my firm, the way the culture is, all these partners are, there's a lot of critical feedback between us a lot on documents and it's just sapping my energy. I cry all the time. It doesn't feel good, you know? And so I'm thinking of now leaving this field that I actually, I mean, really interesting, a field I love, and a position that I worked for 20 years to get into.
Because the criticism is so uncomfortable. So I, like, I had those two examples and then a couple more came in and I really started to feel like, Oh, like we need, we need a framework and we need some tools to deal, particularly with the criticism that comes as we get more senior in our work. Um, but also in some ways the other side of that is dealing with our attachment to praise, of course, right?
And I was also noticing, cause at that time I still had my own day job in the nonprofit world, and there were a few really amazing women leaders of other nonprofits that I would sort of sometimes be in the same orbit with. And what was true of all of them was that like half of their colleagues loved them and half of their colleagues hated them with a passion.
And yet, they were undoubtedly the stars of the field. And I was like, so fascinated by that. I'm like, they've, you know, they've, they've like 100 axed, their organizations budgets over their tenure as leaders they've, you know, grown these things. They're known as just these complete rock stars and like, how is it possible that they did that with like really, I mean, a good 50% of the colleagues, the funders like hating them with an act of passion.
And it struck me that I was seeing something that was so different than the message I had gotten girlhood, which was all the teachers need to like you, you know, every teacher needs to think you wrote a good paper. Every class you need to bring home an A, everyone in the class has to find you likable versus I was looking at these leaders. It's like, well, half of the world is giving them an A half of the world is giving them an F. And is there really any way it could have been otherwise, because to get those amazing results, they were having to do things that were controversial, they were having to piss some people off.
They were having to make decisions that other people didn't like. And there were certainly female professionals in the community that were more universally popular, but they also weren't getting amazing results, right? So those, all of those sorts of things in combination, you know, really got me thinking about, yeah.
If we're going to do substantive work as women, there is going to be a mixed and polarized reaction. Maybe on the internet, maybe off the internet, maybe in your family, maybe in your, whatever, but it's going to come. And then how do we deal with that? As people who have been trained above all, be likable of all above all, keep the peace and have the harmony and make sure, you know, incorporate everyone's feedback.
It's like, no, we actually don't have to incorporate everyone's feedback. Incorporate the feedback of the people who's, you know, are absolutely necessary to have on board to achieve our goals. And that's it. We could leave the other 95% of the feedback alone. So, yeah, so that was kind of the origin of that.
And, um, and the primary tool that I teach around that, that, that is really impactful for, for people is this idea that the feedback you get does not tell you anything about yourself, it only tells you about the people who are giving you the feedback. It tells you about their preferences, their priorities, um, their perspective and you might still want to take that all really seriously and incorporate it and adapt to it if they're your customers or your, you know, loved ones or whatever, but it's not about, it's not about you. It's really giving us insight about them.
Tara Mohr: You know sometimes, it's not, but even in that example, even like, if, if I let's say I'm doing a video and then I get feedback, you know, I wish you would have talked more about that, about such and such.
If I, in that moment, I'm taking that as a criticism of me or the video I am going to get pretty, either hurt or defensive, you know, hurt. If I take it as a, some sort of, Oh, I did something wrong, defensive. If I'm like, come on, you know, that was free. Or, you know, I just like, I don't, I think I talked about just the things I need to talk about.
So in both of those cases, I'm completely missing the opportunity to learn something about my audience.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah.
Tara Mohr: Right? Because if that person is in my audience, then if I know in that moment, I'm not hearing about me. I'm hearing about them, then I know I have opportunity to get really curious, like, Oh, that's what they're interested in.
Okay. Is that something I have something to say about and it becomes really useful. So, part of that mental shift of the feedback tells me about them is that it then allows us to be non-defensive and really curious. So we can use feedback in a strategic way instead of, you know, going on an emotional roller coaster with it.
Erika Tebbens: Definitely. And I feel like that's one of those times where you could really use that inner mentor as a filter and say like, if this person says they want to hear more about this. But I actually, my larger values and what I'm here for, I really don't actually want to talk more about that. Like, I want to stay in my own lane over here to be like, I'm just going to unemotionally say like, that's wonderful that you want to hear more about that.
But actually these three other people are more experts in that. Why don't you go to them? Because I prefer to stay in my lane over here and just like, yeah, totally detached from like, Positive or negative emotion or feeling obligated to, to fulfill that.
Tara Mohr: Yeah, absolutely. I love that.
Erika Tebbens: So the last thing that I wanted to touch on and I'm probably so I know Yirah, but
Tara Mohr: I already knew what you were going to say. Cause there's only one thing in the, my one word that's our desire best about pronunciation.
Erika Tebbens: I don't speak Hebrew, but okay. Yes. So I really, really. Like, this was huge for me because I feel like it gave me language around something that I didn't have language for previously that also operates as a filter for like, is this in the right direction or is this the wrong direction? So for you right in there, that is the over-reactive irrational fear that stems from worries about what could happen about worst case scenarios. We imagine, which I think is like, Oh my gosh, like we just are living in a sea of that all the time.
Um, and then Yirah, which is such a beautiful word has three meanings, but I feel like the first one is the one that so much applies to like the like women entrepreneurs, right? So the feeling that overcomes us when we inhabit a larger space than we're used to, and this was really good. Because I feel like there are so many times when we.
Just say I'm afraid, like this feels scary, but to know that there's like the real, like a negative fear and like a butterflies in your stomach fear is I think really helpful because then I can sort of, if I'm thinking about, Oh, I want to do this program. I can think, am I fearful that it will flop or am I, am I creating this out of a fear that like, people really want this thing?
Or like, it's just, it's, it's kind of like all murky and weird, or am I afraid because it's uncharted territory because I'm about to step into playing bigger into this bigger space than I'm comfortable with. But I'm also like exhilarated in the process. And I feel like when I can balance a thought against those two fears, if it's Euro, I'm like, let's, you know, let's do it.
Like let's, we're going to leap. It's going to be terrifying ass, but let's do it. And when it's hot, I'm like, Yeah, no, she's like, shut it down. So yeah.
Tara Mohr: Yes, I love listening to this. I’m like, you’re ready to teach the material. You got it.
Erika Tebbens: But how does, like, how did you know about those two things? Yeah.
Tara Mohr: Yeah. Well, so I was reading a book just for my own kind of in my own spiritual reading, I was reading a book by Rabbi Allen Lou, um, who was a San Francisco rabbi and meditation teacher. And he was talking about, um, cause both of those terms Pahad and Yirah are old Testament ancient Hebrew terms. So he was talking about sort of in the textual analysis of, Oh, there's two different words for fear used in the Old Testament.
And Pahad is, as you're saying fear of the imagined things, the projections out into the future. And then he talked about Yirah this is how, what Moses, um, the word used to describe how Moses is feeling at the burning bush so this kind of, when we have an encounter with the sacred, which I would say our playing big is also an encounter with the sacred of our truth and our, our aspirations, um, that there's this feeling you're on this word Yirah. And he said, you know, has three definitions, it's what we feel in the presence of the sacred, what we feel when we're encountering a woman were inhabiting a larger space somewhere accustomed to, and also what we feel when we suddenly come into possession of more energy than we normally have.
And it is this it's exhilaration and ah, it's uh, the special almost, um, heightened, positive spiritual kind of fear in a way. Right. So I was reading that and I thought, Oh, like that happens all the time in my coaching sessions, you know? And I immediately thought back to a session where a woman who had had a lifetime banking career finally got out of her mouth.
Like I want to leave banking, I want to go into the international development world, I want to move to a developing country and it was a very long held, but unspoken yearning for her. And when she said it, of course, for the first time she was crying and there was such a sense of sacredness in the air in our session, because it was like this important thing had just finally come up from all the way deep in her belly, you know, out of her mouth for the first time.
And you could hear a pin drop in the room and we could both feel that something sacred had entered the room just by her honoring that truth. And then right on the heels of that came, you know, but I'm so afraid. And I, I saw that would happen a lot in coaching session, like people would tell sort of a sacred truth and we could hang on to it and it's beauty for a moment. And then the fear would sweep in. And so when I read that, I thought, Oh, this is actually gives us language for this special kind of fear. And if we could talk about it that way, like you're saying, we could, we could recognize that it actually is positive.
Even if a little uncomfortable, it's positive. And then we could talk about how do I lean into that and welcome that it's very different from a coach in a moment where they see their clients getting stuck in a worst case scenario, fear. And we got to switch up the perspective. We don't want to switch up the perspective away from that more sacred exhilaration.
Um, so, so that was the origin of it. And it's, it's actually been really, really fun to talk about because people don't know those terms for sure, you know? And, um, they resonate for a lot of people. And also shortly, maybe, I don't know, I don't know the exact year, but between when I read it and now. Um, Rabbi Lou passed away and he sort of had an early passing and I, so I always think, you know, because I've gotten to talk about those ideas and translate them in this way in a lot of like mainstream media and stuff, it just feels really special to know, like, that message is getting carried out in new ways.
Um, even though he's no longer here still writing and talking about it on this particular planet and realm.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. I love that. It is really, really beautiful and I, I would hope and wish that more people would, would know about them. I know we're almost at a time. Um, I want you to be able to talk about your, um, your programs you do, but I have a good friend who, when she knew I was doing the interview, she actually lives near you.
And I said, you know, if you have a question, I would, you know, like, like let me know, I'll ask her. So I have a son who's 15, but she has two younger kids and one is a little baby girl. And she said, what can we do as parents to girls? And I, you know, I think boys too, but especially to girls to instill this in them at an early age so they automatically get more comfortable with playing bigger.
Tara Mohr: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Um, and I, I don't know that I've got one thing. I mean, of course, what parents model in their own lives is, is probably most important. So looking at your own, playing big, you know, and are you, how are you working with your own inner critic?
Are, you know, are you going for your own callings. Um, but you know, in a way we could say that a lot of our playing small comes from learning to not trust ourselves. And so as parents, we constantly have opportunities. I mean, I can't actually think of a minute of parenting that isn't an opportunity to take a stand about the extent to which your kid can trust themselves or not.
Do they get to trust when their fall and done with dinner, do they get to trust? You know, that when they're angry, there's a good reason for it. Do they get to trust, um, do they get to trust their interests for learning? And of course, as a parent, that's nuanced because, you know, do I want my six-year-old to trust his addiction to the golf game. We just allowed him to start playing on the iPad while we're in shelter in place. No, that's not really the part of himself. I want him to trust, but, um, but I think that's really huge, you know, especially, especially for our girls who probably, you know, even get what, but, you know, our boys are boys get a lot of strong messages about that too.
Especially don't trust your tears. Don't trust your sensitivity, don't trust your heart, you know? Um, so I think, I think that, and, um, that's sort of what I'm trying to write about now is like that really what happens if we really have a very deep level of trust about who we are, who our kids are. Yeah, yeah.
Erika Tebbens: Absolutely. And I think that, going back to the Yirah, like I think that we are just like seeped in pod, just, Oh, just constantly all the time in our world. But I feel like it's those like Yirah moments and thoughts, going back to the very beginning of what we were talking about, like that's where all the beautiful answers lie in what we can bring to the world that will heal it.
It just, like we have to get more comfortable listening to Yirah and not worrying about being judged or criticized. And just say like, I trust that the magic that the world needs of me is like, it's in this and I just have to do it.
Tara Mohr: Yes. So beautifully said.
Erika Tebbens: Thank you.
Tara Mohr: We're working on the same team. We got the same mission.
Erika Tebbens: I know total. We did like, absolutely. I think that's why I really like resonated with your book. So everyone listening should get the book and read it. Uh, if you haven't already or go back through and look at everything you highlighted, I'm a big, like highlighter in my books, my husband thinks it's insane, but I'm like, what, how do you not highlight the boring stuff in books?
Um, but tell me a little bit about the other programs that you offer for people who want to do deeper work with you.
Tara Mohr: Yeah. Yeah. So the book is a great place to start, and there is an audio book too, which a lot of people like, cause I read it. Um, yeah. And then we have two courses. So the Playing Big Course, which you took is for any, um, person who wants to play bigger and their life and their work.
And we, we talk about all these concepts, but it's very experiential. So it's like lots of live workshop kind of things and coaching and, um, really getting to practice the tools. And then we also have the Playing Big Facilitators training, which is for people who want what the playing big process for themselves, but also want to use these tools and ideas in their work with others.
So we have a lot of coaches in that program. Um, also therapists, people who use it in all kinds of ways in, in the mentoring, they do people who work in companies and use the playing big framework in managing. Um, lots of women academics who use it in teaching and advising. So anyone who's really supporting others in their playing big and in their growth can incorporate those tools.
Um, and there's lots of information about both of those on the website. And I still write, you know, regularly online. I love that. So just, um, being in touch with, uh, you know, for emails and blog posts, I still call it blogging. I don't know what all these days, but, um, yeah, so that's a great way to get more too.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Yeah. So the book is a great place to start, and there is an audio book too, which a lot of people like, cause I read it. Um, yeah. And then we have two courses. So the Playing Big Course, which you took is for any, um, person who wants to play bigger and their life and their work.
And we, we talk about all these concepts, but it's very experiential. So it's like lots of live workshop kind of things and coaching and, um, really getting to practice the tools. And then we also have the Playing Big Facilitators training, which is for people who want what the playing big process for themselves, but also want to use these tools and ideas in their work with others.
So we have a lot of coaches in that program. Um, also therapists, people who use it in all kinds of ways in, in the mentoring, they do people who work in companies and use the playing big framework in managing. Um, lots of women academics who use it in teaching and advising. So anyone who's really supporting others in their playing big and in their growth can incorporate those tools.
Um, and there's lots of information about both of those on the website. And I still write, you know, regularly online. I love that. So just, um, being in touch with, uh, you know, for emails and blog posts, I still call it blogging. I don't know what all these days, but, um, yeah, so that's a great way to get more too.
Erika Tebbens: Awesome. Yeah. And I will say that your, um, I love the emails from you because they're, they are really like educational and informative and like you put your, your new writing in them. So I really liked that. And your Instagram is great for sure.
Tara Mohr: Thanks. I just started doing more on Instagram, so thank you for noticing.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah.
Tara Mohr: Yeah. I'm getting more of into it and getting more of a sense of how I, how I want to show up there.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Well, it's like a weird aside. So I've been on TikTok during all of this. Like, I know we're going to hop off, but like, um, just as like just, you know, to chill and like have some ridiculous social media that I don't feel like I have to create content for anything.
And it is just filled with amazing like mental health professionals that are teaching people like. All the other. I was like, Oh, isn't it just like moms like dancing and kids like dance. Like, no, like it's all of these people who are like really like affirming and wonderful and helping people. Like I was like, wow, this whole.
Tara Mohr: How are you finding them? I haven't been on TikTok yet at all. But, uh.
Erika Tebbens: So TikTok is really interesting when you first get on it, it just kind of shows you whatever is like the most popular on the main feed. But as you like heart, or like, you know, like different content. The algorithm is really brilliant and it will learn right away, like what you like.
And so now I have all of these people who are, um, like professionals of all different sorts, who educate people in this really fun, accessible way and these short little videos, but it's super, super, super awesome. And I'm like, wow, I really had no idea. It's this whole other world. Yeah, it's really cool.
Tara Mohr: I am really happy to see more. I feel like just so recently, there's like this influx of therapists starting to teach more and be more conten creators on, on social media and otherwise, and I think that's great. Like there were, I think there was a bit of a lag where like coaches were in that space, but therapists weren't as much.
And, um, I'm, I'm so happy to see more of that happening now.
Erika Tebbens: Yeah, me too. It's it's really, it's really great. Well, this is awesome. Every aisle, you know, all the links and everything will be available for people. They should definitely check you out and read the book, but thank you again for your time and your brilliance.
Tara Mohr: Thank you for your brilliance and all your warmth and enthusiasm and such it, like, I feel like you've taken such a deep dive into the material and really gotten it. So it's really moving and affirming to kind of hear it back through your lens.
Erika Tebbens: Oh, thank you. That's really sweet. Well, this was great and I know my audience is absolutely going to Iove it.
Tara Mohr: Thank you!
Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Sell It Sister Podcast. If you loved it and you want more, be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and then head on over to sellitsisterhood.com to join my free Facebook community group. And as your mama said, sharing is caring.
So if you got a lot of value out of this episode, be sure to share it with your biz besties too.
Okay? Now get out there and Sell It, Sister!
