Ep. 042: How to Run an Ethical Business w/ Illana Burk

You know I'm all about ethical selling around these parts, so when I met Illana Burk online and she was explaining how she structures her pricing I was intrigued! I know that you don't just want a profitable business, but you want a business that makes a difference for others. And you definitely don't want to feel icky or sleazy. I think you'll enjoy and learn a lot from this conversation about various ways to run an ethical business. You don't need to run your business exactly like she does, but I think you'll be happy to learn she's very successful while staying in integrity.

BIO:

Illana Burk is a business coach, writer, designer, and podcaster - and most recently YouTuber - who helps people find and create thriving livelihoods centered around their life's work. She's host of the Good Business Podcast and co-hosts #GBBBTV on YouTube and is the owner of Your Life's Workshop. With an MBA in Sustainable Enterprise and nearly 20 years of experience working with small business owners, Illana takes a fiercely rebellious and wildly ethical approach to making money and living your life's work.

LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED TODAY:

• Get my free No-Sleaze Sales Method delivered right to your inbox: Get Instant Access Here

• https://thegoodbusiness.co/welcome-sell-it-sister-listeners/

• Want to read a transcript of this episode? Click here!

  Erika Tebbens: This week's guest is Ilana Burke, who is a business coach writer, designer, and podcaster, and most recently a YouTuber who helps people find and create thriving livelihoods. Centered around their life's work. She's hosts of The Good Business Podcast and co-hosts GBBB TV on YouTube, which stands for good business, bad business.

  And as the owner of Your Life's Workshop with an MBA in sustainable enterprise and nearly 20 years of experience working with small business owners. Illana takes a fiercely rebellious and wildly ethical approach to making money and living your life's work. And she has a special download just for Sell It! Sister listeners.

  So if you are interested in learning more about her, just, you can be sure to find that in the show notes, because it's kind of a long URL, so I'm not going to read it out loud here. Uh, but this is an episode I just wanted to take a minute and say in this intro, before we dive into the actual interview, uh, this can be one where you might get some ideas or hear some things. And you're like, Oh crap, I should have been doing that all along. Or like, Dang! I have been doing stuff that Illana talks about that she doesn't love and doesn't find very ethical. And I just want to say that I got a lot of good info and ideas from this interview as well.

  So while some of the things were already things that were top of mind for me, it actually made me look deeper at ways that I can be more ethical in my own business as well. So I love the saying, you know, when you know better, you can do better. So I really don't want anyone to feel like they are being attacked or judged or any of those things when listening to this, because honestly, as you hear us talk about a lot of experts out there, say you have to do certain things in business to succeed. And we take them at their word and we do them. And sometimes we do them, even if we're like, well, I don't know, but you know, so-and-so said that I needed to.

  So this is really, uh, It a good open, fun like we have a lot of fun and we swear a lot. It's good times, but it's a real open and honest conversation about how we all can be more mindful and more ethical. In the way that we run our businesses, if that is something that is important to us. So I really hope that this is helpful.

  I hope that you walk away from it feeling empowered and inspired and ready to really keep doing good with your business, because I know the kind of people who are, uh, who are listeners of this podcast and who are attracted to my business and my brand in general like we are all people who we are not just out to make a buck.

  We are out to change our communities and change the world, and there is always room to learn and grow. And we will always be learning, learning new things in our business and finding new ways to adjust and tweak things, to make them even better. So I know sometimes at least for me, I'm one of those people where.

  I'm like, dang it. I could have been doing it a different way all along. I had no idea or, you know, and then I might get a little bit discouraged, but I'm really trying to take a different mindset where instead of berating myself, I'm like, Oh yeah. Okay, cool. Awesome. I didn't realize that that was an option or I, that had never even occurred to me.

  So now that I know better, I'm going to do better. Right. So. Again, I hope you absolutely love this and love Illana. It was super inspiring talking to her and as always happy selling!

  I have a very special guest today, Illana Burk. I am so excited. We are going to be talking about ethics in selling and pricing and all that good and heavy stuff.

  Illana Burk: It'll be fun, I promise.

  Erika Tebbens: So thank you for being here Illana. I'm really so excited to have you, uh, yeah, this is, uh, this is good. Like, I, I am very excited to be chatting with you about this because it's something that is right up my alley. And I think it's one of those things that more and more people are starting to be mindful of.

  And I think that hopefully we are turning some sort of a corner in the world of capitalism and entrepreneurship, where, because there are so many options out there and people have access to more information and can generally be a little bit more. I don't know, aware of, of divides and, uh, and, and things like where people don't have access to info and resources and all of that.

  I think that a lot of people are starting to really consider, like how can I run an ethical business, but I also need to make money to support myself and live in and thrive and all of that. So how did you even like come to this, this place of having this be something that you really geek out on and know a ton about.

  Illana Burk: So thank you for being here Illana. I'm really so excited to have you, uh, yeah, this is, uh, this is good. Like, I, I am very excited to be chatting with you about this because it's something that is right up my alley. And I think it's one of those things that more and more people are starting to be mindful of.

  And I think that hopefully we are turning some sort of a corner in the world of capitalism and entrepreneurship, where, because there are so many options out there and people have access to more information and can generally be a little bit more. I don't know, aware of, of divides and, uh, and, and things like where people don't have access to info and resources and all of that.

  I think that a lot of people are starting to really consider, like how can I run an ethical business, but I also need to make money to support myself and live in and thrive and all of that. So how did you even like come to this, this place of having this be something that you really geek out on and know a ton about.

  Erika Tebbens: Oh yeah, no, don't worry, don't worry.

  Illana Burk: So, uh, the fact that that opened up as like, even being an option that like you could think through how your business functions in a way that, um, Uh, how like thinking through how it affects your community essentially. Um, and without, you know, destroying the world. And the process is a nice thing to think about too.

  So while my business moved away from environmental sustainability as its core value proposition, my actual personal value proposition never changed that. Um, I feel like why should we ever do business in a way that, um, that puts someone else in a subservient role? You know, like a, I think that if your business creates shame or makes people feel bad about where they are, you're fundamentally not serving them.

  Like, to me, it just seems like basic good business. Like if you make people feel like crap, then you're probably not doing a real good job and the ideas around scarcity and you know, all the shit we deal with in online business, you know, like all the things that everyone learns out the gate, like scarcity, uh, high pressure sales, um, countdown timers, you know, like, like the crazy false, like we only have four digital things left, you know, all this garbage of like, um, it mixed with all the affiliate sales and everything.

  It basically puts people in this pressure cooker of like, I have to buy this or I'll never be successful. And then you look at the statistics of how few people actually finish courses and actually use the digital tools that they buy and it's minuscule.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illanna Burk: Cause it's all just a bunch of really shitty sales tactics. So I watched all this happen and unfold and I mean, and more to your question, like I was raised by a timeshare salesman. So, um, so I saw, I was like born and bred into how to sell. I can sell anything. If I put on my leg, I just want to sell it. Things to you hat I can, I can sell, like I can sell anything. I used to sell lotion.

  I sold seventy-five dollar lotion and sold more than anyone in the company had ever sold because of basic selling tactics. You know, that I've always understood and known. And the thing is like, when you teach people marketing and you teach people how to sell, it's like giving them the keys to a car. If you don't teach them how to be responsible with it, they're going to run over people.

  So. I had the car early on and I learned the ethics later and understood it later, you know, and once I understood the ethics and how sales can actually affect people for good and bad, um, I felt like it was a pretty deep responsibility that I had that if I'm going to teach people how to sell, I have a responsibility to teach them how to wield it responsibly.

  Right? Like that, that's my, that's my job. Right. I have these skills. I have these tools. I have this knowledge. Um, I should use it to change paradigms and make changes because ultimately like here we are solo preneurs, online business people, your audience, my audience. Um, and we're all like, we've all like run away from something, you know, we've run away from cubicles or jobs or, you know, all this stuff that we all hated.

  And then we created our own businesses and by and large, everybody's creating businesses that operate under the same paradigms as the jobs they left. Yeah. You see like the whole CEO mindset shit. And then like, I'm going to go overseas to hire a cheap ass VA and all this stuff. And it's like, so you left this thing to go create your own version of the exact same thing, rather than actually paying attention to the fact that we have an opportunity here to change how business functions, if we all get together and get our act together and actually pay attention to it. But. Instead, you know, we have countdown clocks and Jeff Walker sales cycles and all that garbage.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And I think I, I really loved your analogy about the keys to the car, because one thing that I know in the work I do since I, I do talk a lot about selling, uh, is a lot of times, people think that it has to be the way that they've seen it. So it's a lot of unlearning and a lot of, um, you know, Hey, when I write this email, like, can I, is it okay to say it like this, like in a sort of like a softer way?

  And I'm like, yeah, it's totally okay. But I feel like a lot of the women that I work with really feel like, uh, I, I either have to do it the way that I see quote, unquote, everyone else doing it, or I'm going to do it wrong and it's not going to work, but that doesn't feel really like good or it doesn't feel like I'm working from a place of integrity if I do that.

  And I'm like, no, you don't have to, you don't have to approach it the way that everyone else does. Like, I do not believe in high pressure sales. I, yeah, so much of like what you were talking about. Just really, I do not love it. I, I love that. I pay my VA, like what I pay her, I'm in a group online for like where people can find VA's and stuff.

  And I really, really, really despise it when people are just trying to get the lowest paid work they can, I'm like.

  Illana Burk: Fiverr, 99 designs, all that shit. It's all like symptoms of the same crappy toxic cycles, you know, of like, I want you to pay me top dollar, but I'm unwilling to support the business of someone else.

  Erika Tebbens: Right.

  Illana Burk: Because I can get it cheaper in the Philippines, like.

  Erika Tebbens: Right.

  Illana Burk: What, seriously?

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. It's just that it's really, it's like, it's very, it's mind boggling. I don't know. It's just, it's very, it's very mind boggling to me. Uh, so I love, I love that that has been your approach. And I love that you are finding clients that also are really being mindful of that too.

  Illana Burk: Yeah. I think if I could speak to like what you said, the whole idea of like, I feel like I have to do it the way I see everyone else doing it. There's a visibility thing there that's like really important that I've been at this for 11 years quietly, and probably most of your audience has never heard of me.

  Right. Like, I don't have a high exposure brand that's with purpose. Like I made that decision a long time ago. I have a list that you'd probably laugh at, like, because I never paid any attention to this building. It wasn't necessary because the kind of work that I do with people is very deep and my people find me like, it just it's the way it is.

  I mean, I've worked at it for long enough that I have a referral pipeline, but it's like, if you looked at my business model, The reason why you don't see people doing it another way is because the people that are doing it in another way, aren't, they don't care about the visibility factor. So it's not everywhere.

  They're not doing that hyper high exposure. Uh, churn and burn. They don't care if they have a 10% open rate because they have, you know, 150,000 people on their list. So 10% is plenty, you know, it's like I have a teeny tiny list, but I have a 75% open rate. So it's like when I speak people, listen, So, because when I wait until I actually have something to say, you know, instead of just trying to sell them something.

  So I've always led with that value first. And I think that's one of those big things that especially new people coming in don't recognize is that there is a whole ecosystem of people like me that are very successful and do very good work and are very smart and are completely uninterested in being one of the faces out there that everyone sees.

  There's the people that I know that are most successful are don't have high exposure brands like legitimately. I mean, you and I have both seen behind the scenes, you know, we see the back doors of a lot of people's businesses and it's like, here's a lot of people making well into six figures and you've never heard of them.

  You know, in every industry, like, cause they're busy doing great work and they don't, they don't need funnels and they're not interested in like being famous and having personal brands and all that stuff and not that there's no, that there's anything wrong with that, but just, but I think that it's like if more people could see that when they start out, it would be so much more encouraging.

  You know, I wish there was like a way to show more people that I guess, going on podcasts and talking about it is the way.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Yeah. It's I know. I mean, it's hard cause you're right. It's uh, and because people don't know and we were chatting about it before I started recording like you are the breadwinner for your family.

  You have a spouse and you have a young daughter and you are the earner and you were telling me, you work Monday through Thursday and you're done at three every day. And you were also just telling me, like you only have one client opening left, like, so you're, you're doing just fine and yeah, you, you do fly under the radar.

  So I think it's because you've been doing it so long and then we'll, we'll loop back around to pricing and, and all of that, but I'm sure people listening are like, Okay, well, what the hell? Like I like, I'm somebody, I, I preach, you know, giving value and, um, you know, just showing up consistently and giving value is a really big thing for me.

  And I don't have the swipe up Instagram feature. I think I only have like, 1200 people, but you know what it's doing me just fine.

  Illana Burk: I think I got like 300. I don't know.

  Erika Tebbens: And I think it's, it's funny though. Cause I think people think, you know, that is one of those like really common nowadays things where it's like, people equate that number two, it must mean success.

  And I'm like for as far as like business people go having, you know, anything under than like 5,000 minimum seems like it's garbage. And I'm like, it's my, it's my biggest, like business referral sources, like personal, like personal connections or like referrals and Instagram. So you can show up and just give value to your people and it works.

  But for you, like you have even fewer and you've been doing this for 11 years and you're pretty much fully booked. So. What is that thing you're doing that made it happen because you're not Marie Forleo.

  Illana Burk: You know what you know, what's funny, I'd say about a third of my list. It's funny that you said Marie Forleo, like, um, so I'm going to tell a short story here about, uh, seven, maybe eight years ago.

  Um, before Marie Forleo was the bazillionaire. She is now, it was probably, I don't know, maybe two or three years into B-School, something like that. Um, she sent out an email looking for VAs. This is, you know, she was a lot smaller back then and she was looking for VAs and, um, I came from, um, brick and mortar management years and years ago.

  And I recognize markers in this email that she had about that she was basically looking for an employee. You know, she had very clear qualifiers of like what she wanted in a person when they had to show up what they had to do, how they had to be available. It was very clearly an employee role. Um, which is, you know, and then she said, you'd be a $10.99 at the end and you don't get benefits.

  Um, and I saw this as like, it, it sent my hackles up because I feel like if you're going to put yourself in a position to say I'm teaching business, then you have to also, um, have a responsibility. As I said, to not fuck it up and not teach people the wrong thing. And when you literally have an audience, the size of hers, which was already thousands and thousands of people, and she's telling them by doing this, that, um, it's okay to do this thing that totally takes advantage of people who are trying to get something up and running VA is et cetera.

  Right. Um, and it's teaching people that, you know, fudging the 10 99 rules is totally okay. And you don't have to play benefits and that's all fine, which is exactly what all these big corporations do. You know? So it's that same thing I was talking about. So I wrote a blog post about it. This is like, Oh, the irony.

  Um, I wrote a blog post about it. I got a couple of HR managers to weigh in, so I got the legal end. Right. Um, and it was not a hit piece. And funny enough, it was Derek Halpern was also, um, mentioned because he had done the exact same thing the same week. And they were like best buddies at the time. And so I mentioned both of them, I laid out the responsibility. I made my case. I was really careful that I didn't want it to be snotty and snarky and it wasn't. Um, I, however I titled it. Why you have a responsibility to not be an asshole when you're in the business of selling your expertise. Um, and it was the closest to viral. Anything I've ever done has been, um, it took off like wildfire.

  It happened to be right at launch season and. I thought I was going to be tarred and feathered by their followers. And I was not, um, I got almost entirely positive response except from Derek who threw a tantrum in the comments section hilariously. Um, but that was the, the like funny, weird irony is that for years that's actually, how people found me was they are every year around B-School they would Google her and look for anything critical, which you will not find very much of. Interestingly, which I found out later is because she has a non-disparagement clause in the B-School contracts. So you literally aren't allowed to say bad things about it. Um, but since I never went, I, there was no, I was just making a point.

  And so for years afterwards, every year I would get this big hit of influx of people who were critical of her for this weird sidebar thing that had nothing to do with anything. So for years I piggybacked on this like bizarre audience builder, and a lot of those people became clients because I was antithetical to what everyone else was doing.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. That's really, that's so fascinating. Cause I, I will have to say like I did not take B-School either, so I don't know. Any of like the inner workings or of any of that. So that's really fascinating.

  Illana Burk: Isn't that hilarious? Like, uh, and I mean, it's so funny. And for years I became like the Marie Forleo basher, like I got known for this, it was super weird, like, so crazy enough.

  However, Google's algorithms work. For several years afterwards, it's not up anymore. So this doesn't work anymore, but I have screenshots. If you typed in Derek Halpern is a Dick or Marie Forleo is annoying. My post was the first thing. Those phrases were anywhere in there. A client pointed this out to me and I'm like, you are kidding me.

  Like, so anyone who was critical of these two very polarizing characters. He found me for years because of this bizarre posts that I wrote and what it taught me was like, I set the bar for myself really high. This was early in my career. I was already established, but it was like earlier in my business, I was like three years in, you know what?

  I had clients that I didn't do it to get attention. I did it because it seemed important and it. Well, what happened over time was that I realized I set the bar for myself, that it's like, if I'm going to say this and I've, I've decidedly hung my hat on having that sense of responsibility, then I have to follow through with it.

  And it became a foundation for just how I function and how I work, and what I come at in every decision I make is how can I be of service to my people? What do they need?

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah

  Illana Burk: And that's the first question I asked, no matter what I'm doing it, it guides everything. And I think too often business coaches, people like us teach people to come from the, the end of how can I make the most money?

  How can I take my expertise and sell it to more people? Um, how can I broaden my audience, broadened my reach deep in their pockets, reach further down to get more pennies, fall into a funnel. And that's where we come from is how do I squeeze more out of the people in my community? And then how do I get more people to squeeze more things out of?

  And that's how marketing works. And this is why people come to, they start business for themselves and go, I hate marketing. Because it feels shitty cause they don't want to do that. And then eventually they decide to compromise because they want to make money like everybody else. And they don't hear any voices saying by the way, you don't have to do that.

  It's okay to not do that. It's slower for sure. It's slower. It will take longer, you will not make six figures in your first year doing like fiercely ethical, slow build your reputation type marketing. It takes a long ass time. No doubt about it took me a long time. Like you have to really continue to get out there and do more.

  And it's like a whole different approach to how you grow your brand. But it always comes down to like, what can I teach in this moment? I mean, I'm doing it now. It's like, I, I could fluff up my business. I could come at the answers to your questions in a complete, from a completely different direction and give you all of the things that are going to make me sound like the smartest one in the room and make people want to hire me.

  Like I could come at questions from that direction, which is the way most people do. Um, I try to come at it from what can I teach whoever's listening. You know, I mean, people listen to my podcast and the first thing they say is you actually give real lessons. Nobody does that. I'm like, really? That seems so obvious.

  Um, but it's true. Like everybody holds back their best stuff all the time. And I think that fundamentally, if you're good, then your best stuff keeps coming and you have to rely on that. And, and that's, that's the way I've operated. Like what do my people need? I mean, I just decided to launch a mastermind because I had a client email me and say, um, Hey, are you doing a mastermind?

  Cause I mastermind shopping and I want to do one with you. So I created a mastermind because I realized I actually had like eight people who all wanted to do one with me. So I'm leading one and hadn't planned it, but I'm doing it because that's what they needed for me right now. You know? So I really, one of my very favorite quotes ever.

  Um, and Oh my God, I've just lost his name. It just left my brain. Um, he's the original CEO of Cliff Bar. Um, and the quote is if you listen closely, your customers will tell you who they are. Oh, that's good. And it's informed how I function in my work. Because if you listen closely, they'll tell you what they need.

  If you listen closely, they'll tell you who they are. If you listen closely, they'll tell you exactly how you should serve them. And if you do that and you're responsive to it and you pay attention, the getting clients part takes care of itself. So that's does that answer your question?

  Erika Tebbens: No, it's so it's so good. And I'm going to okay. Cause I saw, so we're going to put a pin in the mastermind pricing because I remember seeing your Facebook post saying it's a sliding scale. It's going to be between this and this, whatever. And then, uh, Also put a pin in the, like what your clients need and then like, creating that thing.

  But I wanted to say how you were talking about service is that is very much, I. I feel like that is, uh, one of the things of how I look at selling. Like when people say, you know, well, what is selling or, you know, how do you, how do you look at it? And my thing is always like, it's, it's serving people like selling doesn't feel gross when you're like I'm being of service to somebody and I'm giving them the best fit and not just the thing I want them to.

  Buy from me, it totally changes it. And what's interesting is I'm running just this really quick, like a very quick, like month long thing right now for just a small group of, of women. And, uh, and I had them say like, you know what, uh, what's your intention that you want for the new year? And, uh, one of the women in there, she posted after our kickoff call and she was like, I came up with it.

  I know it, it feels so good. My word is going to be served. And I was like, I love that. And she is launching something that is totally brand new. Really, really cool. I know that she's been very nervous about it and she is somebody who, who really wants to like get it perfect. And have it be perfect before she launches it to the world.

  So I said, okay, when you look at it from this point of view, does it take some of that pressure off when you have been feeling really stressed about creating it and launching it and all of that? And she's like, yes, because now it doesn't matter how many I sell or if it's super polished or whatever. I just know that by getting the information to the people who need it, it will serve them.

  And then in turn, it will serve my family. And I was like, boom, that is it. Like, and, and I know, cause I've been talking to her for months about this project that. It has been, she has had that stress, that like weight on her shoulders and just from thinking of it, in terms of serving people, it was like it all melted away.

  And now she's really even more excited to put this thing out into the world because it's service. So.

  Illana Burk: Yeah, it's, it's a trippy thing. Like, I mean, I've told people this a million times, and I'm not the first person to say this, but like marketing and sales are just tools. It's just a communication tool. And, and when people say they hate selling or they hate marketing or they hate Twitter or they hate Instagram or whatever it is, you know, the objections we all hear of, like, I don't want to do that thing, whatever that thing is that I'm probably supposed to do.

  I don't want to do it. I wonder if video, I don't want to, it's looking at those tactical things. They're just tools, you can't hate a hammer. It's like, it's just a tool that means like there's, it's not good. It's not bad. It's only as strong as the person wielding it. Right. So if you wield it responsibly, You know, then it can build a house.

  If you build it irresponsibly, it can bludge out someone to death. So recognizing the selling, pricing, all these things that are just components of our business, they're just, they're just ingredients, they're tools and ingredients. You can build something great with it. You can build something shitty with it.

  You build something that hurts people, or you can build something that helps people like anything else. And I think so little responsibility is put on the business owner these days. It's like, you're just applauded for your numbers for how much money you're making. And it's like, okay, but what's your return rate.

  Okay. But what are the people who went through your program have to say, okay, but your testimonials on your website, don't tell the whole story, they never do. You know, they're the people you, that had a great experience and gave you a glowing recommendation. What's actually going on, you know, I mean, I look at people as like, if you've managed to stay in business, as long as I have, that's the person I want to hire for a business coach, you've managed to keep your head above water that long in any industry, you know, if I'm hiring a life coach or a designer or a copywriter, it's like, you've managed to keep your head above water.

  And, uh, I don't think you're a jerk then that's the person I want. You haven't made me feel shame for your marketing. Let's do more of that serve more, right? Like be nice, give of yourself. Like what's the fucking wrong with that?

  Erika Tebbens: I know, I know. It's very, I, I, uh, I know, and I know when every new iteration of our lives, like we're always sort of starting from square one.

  Um, but I, I am very much, uh, I have a lot of strong feelings and opinions on like, are you kidding?

  Illana Burk: I know what it's like to have strong feeling.

  Erika Tebbens: I know, I know not who knows like any violence over here really meek, modest women. Um, but I, you know, right in my, uh, In my, like, intro for this podcast and everything. I, I really call out like bro marketing.

  I actually, I posted on my Insta stories last night. I saw a dude on Facebook post a reminder like, Hey, if you use like an acuity or Calendly or something that just auto repeats your schedule, like don't forget to turn off Christmas. And I was like, Oh, it's you know, handy little cool tip, like nice of him to put that out there.

  And two dudes below. We're like, Oh no, I'll be working. The hustle never stops. And I'm like, I, I literally, I can't like, I like posting to my Instastories. I'm like, I, I can't even hate that like enough. Like that is just the biggest. That is awful. It's I mean, I don't care if you don't sell it. Like if you don't celebrate Christmas or like, whatever, I don't care what anyone does.

  It's not the point. The point is like, you do not look cool by doing that. And conversely, the, the other thing I have strong opinions about. Is the. Uh, the like business coach, uh, I always say it's like, it's like the white light like, uh, you know, ensemble, uh, like in the, in the light white convertible Mercedes.

  Like driving through Malibu, persona of the like, well, I just woke up one day and just decided I was going to be a business screech. Oh, good. Okay. I was like, should I say business coach Barbie

  Malibu Barbie is how I envisioned her. Um, But I think, but to me that is a thing where like an and because I feel like Malibu business coach Barbie is also the person that's like. Uh, puts out the, the like opt-ins and the freebies that are so fucking misleading. Like I can't, like I made six figures in six months, like, and you're going to get my free guide.

  I literally saw this. Like, if you want, you know, comment below, if you want my free guide. And I'm like, there are literally so many variables that would go into somebody making six figures in six months. There's no way you're giving that all away. In a freebie, like it's just not happening. It's not happening.

  And you're setting people up for disappointment. And I don't, I just don't like that. Like, it's, it's really, it's a bunch of crap.

  Illana Burk: They are capitalizing on hope and desperation. Yes. How fucking terrible is that you really need more of that in the world. More capitalizing on hope and desperation. More predatory marketing, like.

  Where did we not have enough of that with like, here's a car that will help you get laid commercials? You know, like it's nonsense. It filled our whole world with garbage culture and we all hate it. And then yet the online business community is just jumping in with both feet going. Yeah. But it sells stuff.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And it's really it's. Yeah. I don't know. And, and conversely, I think one thing, um, and, and I will, I'll be super transparent too, for myself. It's I really struggle a lot of times writing a copy for my target people because I am not a coach that coaches people to six figures or seven figures, wherever, like I have a lot of issue putting, um, a, you know, a specific promise on it that I think is, is way too difficult.

  And it can be really tempting to say like, well, I'll just like, I'll just like put a promise on there because it'll get more, you know, interest my way, like you said, it'll make things happen faster, but I'm like, I, but I, I don't want, like, it doesn't feel good to promise something that literally Z there are no business coaches on the planet who can promise any specific result.

  Just like there's no social media manager that can promise any specific result or anything. Like it's not feasible. So you shouldn't, you just shouldn't do it.

  Illana Burk: Yeah. And there's, you know, honest marketing is a thing and it works too. And it probably won't work forever. I mean, to be honest, like to be honest, um, because people will catch on and then it will start seeing seeming like a gimmick.

  But right now, honest marketing is still something that works. I mean, we just like, I'm working with a partner on, um, kind of a new endeavor and we named our newsletters sometimes useful, uh, because we're fully aware that newsletters, you know, sometimes they're useful and most of the time they're not, and that's actually like a okay to say, you know what, if you subscribe to our list, sometimes something and it will be useful to you.

  Erika Tebbens: Right, right. Not every time.

  Illana Burk: Not every time, but sometimes and, um, and then we have buttons at the bottom that are, we call them the definitely useful button and, and it just takes you, you click it and it takes you to a link that my partner and I just, something we think is really cool and interesting. But it's like, that's the tack that we take. I mean, I think for a while on my sales page for, um, for coaching services I had at the very top, like I promise you absolutely nothing.

  And you'll, you might not even make any more money.

  I can't even tell you how many people have commented on that. And been like that was so refreshing to hear like being actually honest. Like, I can't promise you anything, but I can. Tell you that working with me will change how you view, what, how you do what you do. And if you don't like how you do what you do right now, and it's not working, why not try that?

  Erika Tebbens: Exactly. Exactly. And it is, it is a thing where like I've had, um, I know I mentioned on another episode where I was talking about like, I don't know, you're I don't know productivity or so I don't even remember, but, um, uh, I told a story about how I lost out on a client because we had, I think it was like a pet emergency or something.

  And so I rescheduled a discovery call and, uh, and then when I talked to her the next week, she was like, I just want you to know, I, I already like hired this other person. And I had that, that moment of being like, Oh, damn like, should I, you know, should I have just kept it? Should I have just sucked it up and done it?

  Or, and then I was like, no, no, I I'm going to work with the people, like, I want to work in integrity with myself and my own schedule. I want clients who do the same. And, um, and also like, and I, I know I lost a client too, because I was very honest on a call that like, I could not promise her this, like one result that she wanted and I'm like, you know what?

  It, it, it does it stings for a second, but then you're like, yeah, but I, I really feel better about what I did versus what I could have done.

  Illana Burk: You would never have been able to get her to what she wanted. I mean, that's the thing it's like, and that's what we were talking about like the slow game of success. Like if you actually do this with ethics and integrity, you have such a higher chance of being able to like survive the long haul, like long enough to actually find sustainable success.

  Because if you take on clients like that, that you can't, you know, that you've made a promise to that you probably can't keep. And that frankly, if they want a promise out of you, they probably want the wrong thing in their business to begin with. And we'll get there anyway, if that's their only priority.

  Then it's like, what's the cost of that? So then you don't deliver, then that person tells everyone they know that you didn't deliver and that you made a promise you couldn't keep.

  Erika Tebbens: Yep.

  Illana Burk: And pretty soon, what does that do to your reputation and the ripple effect? I mean, I've had weird shit that came out of my mouth at a conference, come back and bite me in the ass.

  Like eight years later, this is a small little community, this online business ecosystem. You never know how things are going to sort of come around in cycles. And if you like your name, your reputation, how well you serve your people is like all you've got, you know, because even though we're all like too classy to like bash people in public on social media, my God, we all say it in Facebook groups and in private masterminds.

  And we all have the people we caution people to work, to not work with that were that put out stuff that they made promises and couldn't keep them or stiffed people. I mean, All those things happen behind closed doors. We are in a gossipy, gossipy, cliquey little world. And if you fuck it up, it's going to cost you way more over time than that one client ever would have.

  Right. So that's how you serve right? Being of service. Again, if I can't serve them where they want to be served, how they want to be served and how they need to be served and doubled.

  Erika Tebbens: Right. It's not worth it. Don't do it. Yeah. And I, I know that that sort of, uh, I, I definitely so want to make sure that we talked about pricing because this is such a freaking huge one.

  Um, and I know you have a lot of really great insight on it. And so the, so the thing now we'll come back to that. What I put a pin in was I saw you had posted about, you know, my, the, the range for this thing is probably going to be, you know, this amount of dollars. Um, and then you gave some more details and it was very, uh, it was just a Facebook post.

  Like there was no sales page. There was no like fancy sales video you had made. There was just, there was nothing, it was a Facebook post. And, uh, and like, you know, I could see people commenting and everything and, and I know you filled it and that's super awesome. And, um, and I know you, you brought it about because of people who that you're like, well, I know these people need it and they want it.

  So I, I'll give that to them. So, which is, which is awesome in marketing, right?

  Illana Burk: A lot of stuff from you and then stand in front of them with your wallet open.

  Erika Tebbens: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I will say that my, my own experience with that is sort of similar, uh, in that just over a year ago, I started the mastermind that I run and it was born out of the fact that I had a bunch of discovery calls all at the same time, like it in, within the same like two week period.

  And they were all amazing women who were being totally completely a hundred percent honest when they said. I can't afford your one-on-one right now. Yeah. But I, I would love to work with you when I can and I kind of, I just sat with that and I was like, well, what have I just put them all together in a group and like, made it really simple and then just charged less because it's in a group and then they could still get help.

  And like, it's a win-win. Right. And so, again, it was very simple, there was no sales page. I sent out some personal messages. It had, it had like five bullet points and the price, and I filled it like I just straight up, I filled it that first round and, and I've changed it and it's grown and, and, you know, I've tweaked it since then, but it started very simply from people who were like, I need your help, or I want your help or whatever.

  But I can't pay that price. And I know there are a lot of people out there who are very firm in you never, ever, ever like waiver from your rate and you just wait for people until they can afford you in. And work with you. But I found in doing that, like, I love running that mastermind, those women have had more success because of it.

  We created a really awesome community, like so much good came out of it that wouldn't have happened if I dug in my heels on this as my, my only one-on-one rate, if you can't pay it tough titties. So.

  Illana Burk: I hate that shit.

  Erika Tebbens: Give me all your thoughts, all your thoughts to wash over me and my listeners.

  Illana Burk: It's such bullshit people and here's one thing I can tell the whole wide world, that whole idea of people will only value you if you price highly and stick to it is completely bullshit. It was born out of people who undervalue themselves when they're starting out that is a completely different thing. Right. I charge. So I'll just lay out my rates for you.

  I have one simple rate system for my coaching clients. I start with two, two hour sessions. We do a deep dive intensive and it costs 1500 bucks. And then I charged $500 a month for one, two hour session with me in open availability or two, one hour sessions and weekly email availability. That's how I work with everybody.

  They're in one of those two categories. If they're super busy, they do the once a month. If they're not super busy and they're starting out, they do twice a month now. Um, I, uh, the 500 a month is a sliding scale because I'm all to go as low as 400 sometime,s for people. Um that's but I, um, I also have people that are paying 650.

  I'm not afraid to say that out loud and know that some of my people will be listening to this because they all have already heard that from me. And they know that, um, I don't hide it. Uh, anything over 400 a month goes into a, pay it forward fund for me, uh, that I've run for years and years and years and I match it dollar for dollar.

  And, um, I offer scholarships to people when they need it. If they're a really good fit for me. And I've done that for years and that's what funds it. So basically the work of other people are funded by past clients and without exception, every single person I've ever given a scholarship to has come back to me sometimes years later and given me money to refill the scholarship fund, like.

  Erika Tebbens: That’s awesome.

  Illana Burk: Good people do good things when you do good work for them. And it has nothing to do with how much money they're paying you. It has to do with how much value you offer them and whether they believe you or not. And in the absence of being able to sell that belief, well, people high jacket and do it on price.

  Instead, they say I'm worth this amount of money. And that's how, and it's like a mistaken trust. It's like instead of actually building trust with your people and actually building credibility, you're saying I'm worth two grand an hour. Um, and so therefore if I dig my heels in and force everyone to pay that, then everyone will believe I'm worth two grand an hour.

  And unfortunately on both sides of that transaction, both, both sides believe the lie, but it's a lie. Like if you can actually understand real what real credibility looks like, which is like actual measured success, sustainability lacking of promise, making that you can't deliver on actual, um, values that you can resonate with and a real sense of humanity, then you actually trust them going in.

  And it doesn't matter how much you're paying them. And that has been the immutable truth of my work. If like, I mean, in 11 years I just added it up recently. I've worked with over 400 people like hundreds and, and that's just my one-on-one, that's not even counting the groups that I've run over the years.

  I have a lot of empirical data and I would say in that number, it's probably three or four that curse my name. Think I'm the devil and, uh, would love to see me publicly tarred and feathered. That's the truth people out there that hate me, that hate what I did for them. And it feels like they got no value.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: I can say that because it would be ridiculous not to. After 11 years of that many people, like, just being honest about how you price things. I have enough experience and credibility. I could easily charge twice. What I charge. I know that I could make more money than I make. I know all the tactics. I know all the ways to do it.

  But I don't, because it would mean changing who I serve. Right. Because I love working with people who are either at a high transition point, which means they're, um, you know, their business might be in a downturn and they're not sure what to do about it, or they're just starting out. Those are people that don't have a tremendous amount of extra cash lying around.

  So I have to structure my business so that I make my nut while also keeping a price that's accessible to people that and realistic because when someone's just starting out, the last thing they should do is spend $2,000 on a course, teaching them how to do things that they can figure out online for free.

  That is the last thing you should do. You should invest in your business, but invest in your business like in, in what will actually help your business get up strong foundation. Right? And usually that's not a course, right? Like, yeah, because of course just teaches you tactics. It doesn't actually teach you how to be a business owner.

  So if you're going to invest at that level, find somebody who's a good teacher and invest in getting taught things instead of just a bunch of tactics, right?

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or like the. Yeah. And it's, it's hard cause there's such a, a plethora of courses and things out there that it can be really easy when you're starting out to just think like, well, I have to get a lot of Instagram people, so I'm going to take this Instagram course.

  And that's how, I'm how I'm going to do it. And, or, you know, whatever the case, like swap out Instagram with any other, anything else. Uh, And yeah. And I think that, that, uh, it's interesting, you mentioned that the teaching cause that my background is teaching and it's the thing I love to do most. And the reason I started doing consulting was because I was like the thing that women don't know, like women have women entrepreneurs have these crazy cool businesses doing amazing thing.

  So, so much talent. But I'm like, they just, they don't know how to run successful businesses. And that is where the hangup is and yeah, and I do so like how can I, how can I bridge this gap so that we all have more success, but yeah, but it's, it's hard. And I, uh, there's definitely not like one size fits all.

  Illana Burk: That's the thing, right? Like that whole idea of if they really wanted to invest, they'd pay your top rates. I'm sorry that's just such crap. I mean, how can you say that you're a business coach, teaching people how to make responsible business choices. And then on the other side of your mouth, you're saying that they should go into more credit card debt to pay you your top rate.

  Which is just going to put them behind the eight ball financially, which is going to make them make choices in their business based on scarcity and fear. Like instead, why not help them build a sustainable business and figure out a way in your own business structure to make it pay off later. Right.

  That's what I do. Like I have people that build up their businesses and then over time when they want to create a mastermind, for example, and they're shopping for masterminds, they come back and say, hi, I'd like to pay you $500 a month. Well, you run a mastermind and I can be like, sure, yeah, let me get store people together.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: I have a Facebook post and that's usually how I sell is with something simple like that or personal. And I tell people right up front, how much it costs. And I tell people whether I can afford to do scholarships on it or not. Um, if there's going to be any available or not, sometimes there is sometimes there's not.

  Um, and I work within my capacity, you know, and I make sure that I'm always delivering and always serving the people that I want to serve and that feel good surf. And that rotates in me, you know, I know myself well enough. It's like sometimes for a while do a newbie group, you know, and there'll be paying you like 25 bucks a month and I'll give them the same level of values.

  The people that are paying 500 a month. And they both know that, know that it's like, that's what makes it possible to do what I do is that I'm really transparent. It's like, if this has high value to you and feels like it's worth 500 a month to pay 500 a month.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: And it works.

  Erika Tebbens: Question on the sliding scale, do you let people self-select or how does that, so if you say, okay, it's from 400 to 650.

  Do you, do you let the client self-select or do you, because you've kind of got an overview of like where they're at and whatever, like, do you make the decision? How does that work?

  Illana Burk: No, basically, usually it happens on the console. Um, I mean, I. Most of the time by, by the time somebody gets to a consult with me, they probably already know if they're going to hire me or not.

  So most of it is kind of coaching more than that. I like, I very rarely have people say no after a consult, it's just not, it doesn't happen very often. Um, so usually it's at the part of the call where it's like, okay, if you're really interested in this, here's how pricing works. Um, and there's absolutely no pressure to pay over the minimum.

  I make sure that my minimum, anytime you do a sliding scale, you gotta make sure your minimum is something you can live with. It's your baseline like I could, you know, it's not gonna affect my livelihood or like whether I can pay my bills if I charged 300. But I know that for me, what feels right. It's kind of intuitive honestly, is like at my level of experience, I don't feel great charging under that. Like, it just feels kind of like weird to me. That's that's about what the market will bear.

  I have enough experience to know that I know that $400 a month, isn't going to take food out of someone's mouth. If they're coming into business coaching, like I know that that's a reasonable, reasonable amount that they could stretch to if they need to.

  So I tell them that like, here's how the sliding scale works. Here's where the money goes. If you pay any over that, um, what do you want your rate to be? And then I stopped talking and tell me, and I'd say about 50% of the time they pay my top rate. Most more often than not almost everybody pays about 500 a month.

  Like that's my pretty standard and has been for years and years. Like I haven't raised my coaching rates in a really long time. Cause I don't, I don't need to, honestly, it's like, I make a great living and I make enough and that's okay with me.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: You know, I'm, I'm filling the coffers where I want to fill them and I'm looking for new ways to build in other directions, but it won't be on the backs of my clients.

  You know, if I want to make more money, it's not going to be off of the backs of the people that need me. It's going to be me figuring out how to serve in a different way meaning writing a book, creating a podcast, finding advertising, like there's a million ways to create revenue, but I'm not going to look at my people like a piggy bank.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. Oh, that's good. I'm not gonna look at my people like piggy bank. I like that reframe. Yeah, it's not. Well, we're at the time of recording this. We are at that time of year where everyone is about to start sending out the emails, don't forget to raise your rates. And then for the new year, you gotta raise your rates for the new you're doing your business, right?

  Illana Burk: No, you don't, you don't have to raise your rates. I have clients, I probably have half a dozen clients right now that make more money than me. The charge more for their coaching services than I charged for mine.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: Like, and we joke about it all the time and that, and it's completely okay with me and it's completely okay with them because that's what their business needs to do to serve their people better.

  Like their industry is different than my industry. Yeah. Their goals in life are different from mine. They need to sustain their business. Like, yeah. I mean, I have a client that charges a thousand dollars an hour. Um, and she gets it. She's an executive coach and that's, and she gets it, but she only has four clients at a time.

  Right, right. She talks to a couple times a month. So because it's such high, uh, level coaching, she does all these notes. She does all these like follow up things that it's much more intensive. So when you actually add it up, she probably makes less per hour than I do for the amount of time she spends on the phone.

  But on the surface, it looks like she charges more than the coach she pays for guidance and it's like, there's always more to the story. There's always more to the pricing story than that.

  Erika Tebbens: Totally.

  Illana Burk: And if you come at pricing from that standpoint of service that we were talking about is like, how can you be of service to your people?

  If you're charging half of your people too much to serve them, there's got to be equity there, right? Or what's the fucking point if you got into this, because you wanted to help people. I mean, and plenty of people get into business because, and not trying to help people. They're just trying to make a living. And that's the difference, right? Like if you're legitimately trying to help people and that's, what's most important to you, then you make sure that you always take care of yourself.

  First of course, like I, I'm not going to charge a hundred dollars an hour, even though plenty more people would be that would make it more accessible to them. That's not accessible to me. That doesn't feel right. I can't do what I do at that rate. I just can't right. So understanding and being honest about that, and then finding the equilibrium in between is how that works.

  Right? Like that's how ethical pricing should work.

  Erika Tebbens: And I think it's yeah. Oh, sorry. Not to talk over you. I just was going to say, I think one thing for me that, uh, is one of my regrets when I started this, uh, as a service-based business. Cause I had. Predominantly always sold products before was, uh, thinking I had to start too high from the get-go and it was very self-sabotaging for me.

  And once I listened to my intuition and I dropped everything down, that was when things took off. And interestingly, since then I have raised prices and it's beyond what it is. What used to freak me out, but I had to get, I had to like adjust that thermostat and be comfortable before I increased it. And I think that the messaging of it from the get-go, it has to be this high amount.

  Uh, at least in my case, it did not serve me because all it did was make me feel like. Well, I don't know anyone right now as I'm starting this, like, and the people I was serving at the time were mostly newer entrepreneurs where I'm like, they can't really, like it's, it's a hard ask for them to pay this higher amount.

  And I didn't really feel comfortable with it because I was in the infancy of my own business. And so. That was like a really, I ended up doing the thing that they tell you don't do. And lo and behold, like that's when things actually worked and now I feel super comfortable charging that same price that two years ago I was petrified or charging more, but like, I just, again, I was going by the rules of what, what they say, quote unquote, they say.

  Illana Burk: Well, and I think it's like, it's really important to notice and talk about here too, because you do have people listening that are going to take this advice and think about it.

  And when you're starting out, this, what we're describing can also be taken as kind of a cop-out. Right. Like, because it's scary to charge a lot when you're new, you know? Um, and so it's like, we've both seen the people out there that it's like, they charge so little when they're starting out. Cause they don't know how to ask for more.

  And they don't really know what the market will bear and they end up harming their whole market, you know? Did this happen so much in designers, designers, I think designers and copywriters you see at the most, you know, oh, it's just photographers and other ones where it's like, when I'm just starting, I'll undercut everybody else.

  Which is like it's so that's like another direction of it being really shortsighted because if you have high value, then charge accordingly.

  Erika Tebbens: Right.

  Illana Burk: Don't overcharge. Right. That's the thing it's like, you have to know your value place. If you're a really damn good designer, then charge the rates of a really damn good designer.

  But if you're a baby designer, then charge the rates of the baby designer, you know, you don't really know what you're doing yet, then charge accordingly, but don't act like you do right. That's where, what re you know, when people go, what is authenticity? That's what it is be who you are now and charge accordingly for that.

  Don't try to be something else because ultimately, if you, if you're starting out the best way to grow businesses to over-deliver a little bit, not a lot, just go exceed people's expectations by like this much. And I know this is a visual, but I'm pinching my fingers in the air people. Um, You over-deliver a little bit.

  And if you're overcharging, you can't over deliver.

  Erika Tebbens: Correct.

  Illana Burk: Right. You can only come in below the bar, you set for yourself. So when you're starting, make sure you're getting to that place of like, here's where I know my skills are, which means being fiercely objective about your, your role in the marketplace.

  Like where do you sit? Look, you know, if you're a designer look around at other designers, are you as good as them ask, ask other designers, if you're as good as them get some objective input. And look at your business subjectively, and you'll be able to see where you fit in the pricing spectrum. And that's so that's what I just want to like, add that in, because I feel like from a, that ethic responsibility stuff.

  Erika Tebbens: No, it's true. And I, and I will say like, it, they were definitely not rock bottom prices, but it was like, it was the price that my heart was telling me was the right price for where I was in the moment. And it's what felt comfortable to pitch to somebody. So I was saying, you know, this feels really good, whereas that higher rate, which is funny, cause I don't even remember exactly what it was now, but I think I like bumped it from like three something an hour to like 197. And I was like, this feels good. This feels right. And then it was like, Oh great. Like I was getting people on an initial call or like, like even my, the success squad mastermind since them, it, you know, since I launched it last year, I think I've raised the price like four times and every time it's been.

  It's like an internal thing that's like, Hey, it's it's time. Like, there's a lot of that. There's more value in here. Like good time trying to raise the price. Um, but it's all.

  Illana Burk: If you have value, charge more money. That's okay.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

  Illana Burk: He's telling you to star.

  Erika Tebbens: I know, but it's one of those interesting things, because I think that, I think it's hard.

  I think people want like a formula, but like, there is no, there's no clear cut and dry, like no formula or something like that. Um, all right. So don't want to take up too much more of your time, but I wanna hear, I wanna hear your cool story about paying it forward.

  Illana Burk: Yes, yes. How the Pay It Forward Fund started. Okay. So this is a great story. Um, I know we talked about this offline, so, um, back, I dunno, five or six years ago, now this is how the pay it forward fund that I have got, got started. So I had, um, a client who'd been a follower for awhile and she got on a consult call and wanted to do a whole brand. And then at the end of the, of the call, she was kind of going, but I can't really afford it right now.

  And like, she'd been a follower of my blog reader for a long time. And. Um, she gets to the end of the call and does this like throw away about how she's doing Seth Godin's alt MBA, like in one of the first years of it. Um, and how in like three days he's going to promote all the participants on his blog, everybody that was in it, and she didn't have a website.

  And she's like, but I know obviously you can't do anything that fast. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. wait, what kind of a marketer would I be if I didn't make this happen for you? When Seth Godin says jump. Rght? So I said, here's the deal. Um, I can do this for you for 500 bucks. Can you afford 500 bucks? And she said, yeah, I think I can pull that together.

  And I said, great, for 500 bucks in three days, you're gonna have a website. You won't really have any say in it, but I'll get it up. It'll look nice. And you'll have something that when he promotes everyone, you won't be the one that doesn't have a link. Right. Um, and, and I said with the agreement that you'll do a brand with me when you can afford it, like we'll do a real full featured brand when you can afford to do that.

  This is back when I did like a lot of big brand design stuff. So, um, So she said, great. I love that. So it was just a promise, just a casual promise. So I dropped all my weekend plans and busted my ass and I got a website done for her and like two and a half days. So then she emails me, I dunno, a few months later.

  And she's like, so I just, I got a dream job and I'm not going to need a brand, but I still want to uphold our agreement because what you did for me was so amazing. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that means. You know, I was like, so what do you mean by that? And she's like, well, I'm making great money now.

  And so if you have somebody who needs help with a project, I guess, let me know. I was like, okay. So then fast forward another couple of month. And I have a client who was not a native English speaker and she needed a full copy suite written for her website. It was like, non-negotiable like her writing was just not like, you couldn't understand it in English.

  So she gave me all her copy for her website and was like, we can't use this, you know, like you need, you need a copywriter, it's essential. She couldn't afford it. And she needed about 2000, 2,500, something like that in copywriting for her whole site. And yeah. Um, I went back to client, a Seth Godin lady and said, so here's this crazy thing.

  I have a client who needs what you do, who needs copywriting and she said, how much will it be? And I said, $2,500. I think it was either 2000 bucks. I can't remember now. Um, and, uh, and she said, where do I send the check? Wow. And that was how it started, was she sent a check for $2,000 to pay for the copy of a total stranger.

  And, um, It was the beginning of something and I published it on my blog and I started talking about it. I had, at the time I had a donation link, which I don't have anymore, but, um, it was just, uh, basically like that, that's where it began of like that there are people in the world who will do something like that.

  And if that's true, what else is true? What else can I create with that? So I've been keeping track of it for years now. Um, I mean, I think the last time I added it up, we've done three full website and branding projects. Uh, I've helped probably 50 or 60 people get coaching that wouldn't have been able to afford it.

  Um, I funded a trip to a conference for a client. Um, I funded copywriting training. I funded people going to, uh, courses that they needed to improve their skills. Um, all kinds of things over the years. And it's all been 50% funded by clients and 50% funded by me. So I match every dollar that comes in and that's how I do discounts, quote, unquote, air quotes, right discounts. Um, it's all scholarships. It's and that's how I frame it.

  Because it is something that it's, it's merit and need based. If I think somebody is really, and it's completely subjective, by the way, like, I don't have a form you fill out or anything you tell me what's going on in your business.

  I tell you if you burned it or not, the buck stops on me, but it's been one of the most enriching and amazing and fueling things that I've ever done and it's so cool. And it works and it's like, It allows people to get what they need instead of what I'm giving them. You know? And I think that's something that I, I think the way we, um, this interview came up was we were chatting in a group.

  And, um, I think we were talking on that thread about, uh, somebody was running a big mastermind and she was going to do 50% off and it was still like inaccessible to a lot of people. She's trying to figure out the best way to do that. Do you remember that? And, um, and I was weighing in on that, that it's like understanding that if you're going to give, you have to give something that those people need in a way that they can actually receive it.

  You know, like sometimes for some people, even $200 a month is too much for coaching, you know, and I've, I've never done a hundred percent, um, scholarship. I think that everybody should have at least a little skin in the game for business coaching, but, but I've gone. I've I funded people down to a hundred dollars a month.

  A few times and it's, um, and they've been some of my best clients and they've come back and pay me back, almost all of them have paid at least something back and almost all of my clients contribute to the Pay It Forward Fund. Also, I only have a couple that, uh, basically it's the people that are receiving it are the only ones that aren't, aren't contributing to it right now at any given time.

  Erika Tebbens: So that is really cool. I love that. And I think too, it's, uh, it's one of those things. Uh, where, you know, it's our businesses, so we really get to make it how we want it. And like, we, we obviously need to, like you said, like, you need to cover your own overhead. We like part of ethics is like personal ethics and taking care of yourself and your family and all of that.

  But I think, I know for me, like my, my two people that on my, like on my private coaching, get a discount are always, uh, farmers and like military affiliated people, because that has been my life. And so it's all, it's, it's just, those are the two soft spots where I'm like, even, even if they could like, that is what I want to do.

  Like, I, it makes me feel good to be able to do that and so I just do it and I love it. And so there was no like fanfare, there's no like huge flashing banner on my website that's, it's just, if I'm talking to somebody who falls into one of those two categories and they decide they want to work with me, I'm like, Oh, and P S you get this like discount because I, I dunno.

  I just, I, I want to, so I guess in a way, like other people who work with me at my regular rate, like they make that they make it possible.

  Illana Burk: I've never thought more of a frame around it. Like, it's the same thing.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah, I never thought of it like a scholarship, but I, I love, I love looking at it that way. And, and that, it, it also gives me a lot to think about for the future.

  And, uh, and even I've, I really wanted to do some scholarships, um, for, uh, like teenage and young adult women who especially maybe want to go into entrepreneurship and not traditional paths like college or whenever, because I think that.

  Illana Burk: How many of us wish we would've started this when we were 20, right?

  Erika Tebbens: Honestly, that expensive English degree is not really doing anything for me right now. But, uh, but yeah, so, and I, and I think it's, it's really cool to reframe it and think like, Oh wow. Some of that money that I'm bringing in, I can actually set it aside and do something that feels really good from my, from my business with it. And, and, and I can only do it if I make money. So yeah.

  Illana Burk: It's, it's a win. It has to be a win-win that's the thing about discounts. It has to feel like a win-win if you can't make it a win-win both for you and for them, then you don't do it. Right. You know, like that's where being like an experienced business owner comes in.

  That's where like, learning how to make those decisions is so key, because you can't do that stuff right out the gate. You don't have the experience yet to know how to do that. Well, so people do it poorly and it doesn't work and it harms their business. And then they say, fuck it. And then they go do all the high pressure sales that everybody else teaches.

  You know, it's like, I mean, my soft spot person is the, like the broke person with really good ideas. Cause that was me when I first started. So I have like the soft spot for the like, really, like, I want to change the world and I can't afford to go to Starbucks once a week.

  Erika Tebbens: Yes. I love it. It's so great. Thank you so much. You have been so, so generous with your time and, um, so where, where can people hang out and get more and watch and learn from you and all of that?

  Illana Burk: Uh, well, the two places I show up on the internet the most is The Good Business Podcast, um, that you can find in all the usual places.

  And we recently launched GBB TV and that's G-B-B-B TV. It's good business, bad business TV with my partner, Rachel Allen, uh, she's a copywriter and she owns Bolt from the Blue Copywriting and each episode, we take two stories of, um, our experiences with either a good business or bad business and we switch off and then we talk about our experience and why it was one of those two categories and how to apply those lessons to the online and solopreneurship business world.

  So we take like our experiences with like brick and mortar marketing and, um, and why it works, why it doesn't, what's good, what's bad. Um, and how to think about that. And then we, uh, teach lessons off of it and we laugh a lot and it's super fun.

  Erika Tebbens: That is so cool.

  Erika Tebbens: I will come subscribe and I will watch because I am. I am such a dork for brick and mortar like business. I mean, that's like where I got all of my experience. And so I have also a lot of thoughts and feelings and opinions and, uh, Am I, and I absolutely love it. And I think that, I think when you, when you can do brick and mortar, when you can do like physical standing on your feet selling.

  Illana Burk: And I should come subscribe. We have so few subscribers come subscribe.

  Erika Tebbens: I will come subscribe and I will watch because I am. I am such a dork for brick and mortar like business. I mean, that's like where I got all of my experience. And so I have also a lot of thoughts and feelings and opinions and, uh, Am I, and I absolutely love it. And I think that, I think when you, when you can do brick and mortar, when you can do like physical standing on your feet selling.

  Illana Burk: It's so much harder than this motion.

  Erika Tebbens: Oh my, Oh my God. That's so, I mean like literally folding down a whole store after like Black Friday or Labor Day.

  Illana Burk: I'm having flashbacks on Black Friday once never again, never again.

  Erika Tebbens: No, it's. Yeah. As, since Black Friday just passed every year, right? It's like flashbacks. I'm like 12 hour days.

  Illana Burk: I managed to make up store on Black Friday, once and after working like a 14 hour shift, I, there was such a terrible traffic jam. It took four hours to get out of the parking lot and I had to pee the whole time.

  Erika Tebbens: So I would have been done. I would have been all over for me for sure.

  Illana Burk: I'm crying when I drive past malls, I'm still trying.

  Erika Tebbens: Oh yeah. It's. I mean, it's, it's a whole thing, but like nothing will make or break you, like figuring out in-person retail. It's just the, it's one of the hardest like selling things truly. It is. It is. And yeah, and I.

  Illana Burk: And it's funny that we both have that experience because it really does. I think it changes your perspective on how you sell online for sure. Like, you know, it, it gives you a whole different picture of like what selling really looks like and how to do it and how to think about it because we're used to having a real human being standing in front of you.

  Erika Tebbens: Yep. It’s true.

  Illana Burk: It's, it's fundamentally different when you're writing a sales page versus having an angry lady holding her receipt in your face, going on to talk to your manager.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And then when you were like, Oh shit, I am the manager. I was the boss. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, one last thing, because it just made me think of this, that ties back with the ethics and everything.

  The one thing I do like in, on social media every year, uh, since I like, even when I had my product based business before is I would all, I'm always like, Hey, Memorial Day is coming up. I'm going to strongly advise you in the most loving way I can, even though your it's your business, it's not my business do not run a promotion that's like a happy Memorial day get 25%.

  Because when I worked in regular retail, you know, like that's a big Memorial day weekend. Like they have their big sales and they have their promo flyers and like, it. Even if I wasn't like a veteran spouse or whatever, it's crazy, it's a somber holiday.

  Like it is not when you are like, what's that 25% off bedding. Sure. It's so gross. It's just so gross. Same thing. Like they would do it, you know, for like Martin Luther King day or like Columbus day. And I'm like, I can't, I cannot with this. This feels terrible. And so, uh, whenever I post about that every year, a lot of people are like, Oh, my gosh.

  Thank you for saying that. Or thank you for the reminder. I didn't even think about it or I was going to run a thing and now I won't, and I'm like, listen, I'm not no judgment because a lot of times you, again, you just see what other people are doing and you get that promo. And you're like, if I don't run the promotion that I'm gonna miss out on sales and I'm like, yeah, but like, you literally don't have to take a holiday.

  I don't care if 99% of people selling anything, do a Memorial day sale like you do not have to. There's nothing that says you have to. And in fact, you can be very open about why you're not, and it's not going to harm your business.

  Illana Burk: In fact, it will probably help it. Yeah. Being counterintuitive has basically been what I've done.

  Every, I built my entire business off of going what's everyone else doing? I'm going to go over there and meaning the opposite direction. I mean, that's seriously. And it, and it has always served me well. Always, I've never run a black Friday sale. In fact, every year I've done it. Usually I do it, some something for gratitude where I do, um, like I give away, I did 30 days of giving one year, which by the way was fucking bonkers.

  But 30 days of giving, like 10 years ago of between Thanksgiving and Christmas, I gave away something every single day for 30 days. So during my quote, unquote month off, um, I was running this massive giveaway and, but that's all he did. I, there was no sales pitch at the end. There was no launch.

  There was no nothing. Like I just was, it's supposed to be a time of giving and gratitude. So that's what I did. And I, I still have a half dozen clients that came to me out of that, that I wasn't trying to sell them anything. They just thought it was really neat and that made them want to hire me. Like counterintuitive, values-based marketing.

  It's like, it takes care of itself. Just do good shit for people. Be nice.

  Erika Tebbens: Yeah. I actually have a coffee mug that I forget that I forget the artist's name, but it's her print and it says don't be a dick. I love it. It's the greatest. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much, Illana. This was amazing. And I love chatting with you and I hope people get a ton of value out of this. And get some really, really cool ideas and, and all of that.

  Illana Burk: Thanks for having me. This was super fun. I feel like just keep talking for like two hours.

  Erika Tebbens: I know. Right. Seriously. And enjoy your month off. Oh my gosh. Exciting. December is, or my time, man.

  Illana Burk: I'm not doing a 30-day giveaway again.

  Erika Burk: Do a 30-day nap marathon.

  Illana Burk: I got that sounds good. Awesome. Thank you. Bye.

  Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the, sell it sister podcast. If you loved it and you want more, be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and then head on over to sell itsisterhood.com to join my free Facebook community group.

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  Okay? Now get out there and Sell It, Sister!