Ep. 115: Creating More Inclusive Programs & Courses w/ Mariana Peña
One of the best ways to grow our revenue as online entrepreneurs is by leveraging one-to-many offerings instead of, or in addition to, one-to-one offers. While there are tons of resources out there that can teach you how to create and launch a course, membership, or group program they might be lacking one crucial element...inclusivity.
The good news is that it's actually fairly easy to create a really welcoming and safe environment in your programs if you are intentional about it and get some help. This way everyone feels seen & heard, and has a great learning journey with you.
In this episode Instructional Designer Mariana Peña shares some of the ways you can honor the intersections of the people in your programs and how it can make people feel like valued humans, rather than just numbers in the crowd.
Instructional designer for purpose-driven online business owners who want to develop a red-hot, unique-to-them signature service or certification program that feels like a true representation of them and transforms their clients on a deliciously and unusually deep level.
Links:
https://marianapenavargas.com/
https://www.instagram.com/marianalpv/
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I am thrilled to have on my friend, Marianna Penya, who is just an amazing, amazing human in general and a phenomenal instructional designer. And I actually just finished wrapping.
Working with her, for my rebellious success program to make it even better than it already is. And it's pretty damn awesome already. So I'm thrilled. I absolutely loved working with her. I. Just recommend her to my clients, to my friends, to everyone I can tell about her. She is just so incredibly awesome.
And I think you are going to really, really, really love what she shares in this episode. So a little bit about her. She is an instructional designer for purpose-driven online business owners who want to develop a red, hot, unique to them. Signature service or certification program. That feels like a true representation of them and transforms their clients on a deliciously and unusually deep level.
And you can find her, uh, all of this will be in the show notes, but you can find her@mariannapenyavargas.com and over on Instagram at M a R I a N a. L P V. So that's Marianna L P V. You're definitely gonna want to check her out. Talk about it in here, but she posts. Great, great content. I know that if you like me and like what I'm all about.
You were also really going to like her. So enjoy this episode and then go on over, follow her, see what she's up to. And if you have been thinking about your own courses and programs and. Maybe you need some help, making sure that they are as good as they can be then of course, check out her services. Okay.
Under the episode. Hey Marianna. Welcome to the sellout sister podcast. I am so. So excited to have you here. I feel like this could be a five-hour long conversation. We will not go down that rabbit hole. We will keep it much shorter for the listeners, but I, this is just, this is such an important conversation.
So I'm glad that you're here and you are one of my favorite people on planet internet. So welcome. Thank you so much. That's an awesome introduction. Yes, we will not go five long, but if someone that is listening would like to continue the conversation for five hours, five hours. Please reach out. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
Reach out, reach out to you after, uh, yeah, you have, I, I feel like my listeners are, if they don't already know you, they should follow you and enjoy all of your content because I feel like it's really aligned. With a lot of the values that I have and that I share. And I feel like when I tell people, oh, I've worked with you and you do instructional design, but then I'm always like, but it's so much more that feels like it's really, you know, it's like beyond it's.
So it's so different than just having somebody like review course materials and say, oh, this is good. Change this change that, you know, it's, it's like, you really infused. A lot of different elements into the work you do. And one of those is intersectionality. So why don't you first just give like a little bit of backstory about that.
You know what you do and how you got there before we get into the real spicy stuff. Yes. I love spice. So I am Mariana, as you mentioned, I'm an instructional designer. And what that means is that I am the person that you need by your side. When you want to translate all the abs inside your head into a learning journey for your client.
That might look like a signature course, a group coaching program, the journey, and set up a membership, whatever it is, whatever points of interaction that you have with your client.
We see it as a learning journey because do me, every act of communication is learning from each other. And that's how I approach everything that I do.
So I'm Mexican. I'm now living in the Netherlands. Six years. Um, and it wasn't until I migrated to the Netherlands that intersectionality became so relevant in my life. I grew up in a country with colorism and had my own experiences with discrimination. Um, just based on your skin color and where you came from, where you were born.
Uh, But nothing prepared me to live in a predominantly white country with a heavy, heavy past, uh, that is not addressed. Um, so when I moved here, I realized that my identities. Evils I officer him was not Mexican. I was an immigrant. Um, I was not an educator or a teacher. I was someone without a job. Um, I was not a daughter or a sister.
I was the mother of a biracial kid. Um, so all these new intersections made me reframe. What my expertise was. Um, and I could just not continue creating programs and courses and curriculum from the mainstream lens because I realized that was leaving my people out. So that's sort of how it became so relevant in my life.
Um, and now. I'm sort of leading these personal one woman revolution to de-center, um, whiteness in course curriculum. Yeah. I love that. And I feel like that is at the heart of when I say, you know, she's so much more and you just have to check out what she talks about because. It is so different. Like you can tell that you are, that, you know, that one woman revolution.
And I feel like why I really wanted you to help me refine and make even more powerful. My rebellious success program, which we just finished working on together is because. That program for me is my one woman revolution in my industry. Just like what you're doing in your industry. So I feel like other than the fact that we had a coffee chat and I just like you as a human from a, like a marketing point of view, I feel like having that sort of like flag in the sand that like he'll, you will die on is it's what attracted me to want to work with you and want to refer.
My clients to you as well, and my friends too, as well. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's that's that feels my heart to know that it, it comes across as I am trying to, to, to communicate because sometimes you're not completely sure that the message that you want to put out there, um, will resonate if people are going to understand it.
But what I have learned. This past year, is that the more, I I'm honest about how I see the world and, and the more I speak about my lived experiences as a woman of color as an immigrant, um, as a member of a minority in a European country, somehow even when people are not sharing. Intersections per se.
They still identify with the wheel, do do things differently. Um, and I really, really try to invite everyone to join this movement because it. Yes, it's a smart move. It's a smart move from a business perspective, because we can talk about unique value proposition and we can talk about, you know, differentiators in the market and, and benefits and whatnot.
But if they are not hardness in your true self, um, they mean nothing and they are not going to keep you going through, you know, the hardest time. Yeah, I completely agree. Completely
agree with that statement. And I know I like I'm going to have, you know, we'll, we'll have a discussion around like how you can be more mindful of intersections in your program.
But before we dive into like the, how to, I would love for you to share a bit about what. What happens when we don't do that. Right? Like even, you know, I, I know that the, everyone who listens to this probably a very well-intentioned person is not intending to cause harm wants to be as inclusive as possible.
Uh, but what. What typically do you see that happens in the world of online business, especially with courses, memberships, group programs, things like that. When people haven't taken this into consideration, that's a very good question with a lot of layers in the answer. Um, For example, um, people tend to think when it comes to inclusion and diversity for their courses about the little things.
So, oh, let me, let me, uh, right on the sales page. Um, How much does it cost in us dollars and maybe also in pounds so that they understand that it is also for different markets, but that's not really directly related to the learning journey. What I want people to consider when they are creating their programs is about the personal background of the participants in your program.
And not the personal background when it comes to what have they learned before they come to your door, which is typically what you think about, but what is the culture of these group of people? Do they share the same culture? And what I mean by that is we grow, we grow up inserted in different communities, family school, um, All these different institutions shape the way we relate to, um, power, the way we relate to authority.
So for example, if you have a program that includes live coaching calls people don't, when you don't think about this cultural background, you are unconsciously giving privilege to people who come from. Um, a white Protestant environment where they grew up used to speaking their mind, raising their hand and taking the mic.
When people come from other cultures like Latin American cultures. And I know we're not monolith, but let's say Mexican. Um, I can speak for Mexican culture. We are not raised like that. We deal with our Dean a very different way. We are taught to respect authority to not question authority. So when it comes to a live call, who do you think is going to take the microphone?
Who is that going to take more space and get more feedback from the facilitators? And it doesn't have to be related to the skills of the one person on the other. No, it's just how they were raised is how they deal with hurricanes. So when I'm working with clients, I, I always invite them to think about this part because I want them to be aware of their own biases, but also of the fact that their participants might react differently.
To their authority and the, the way we can address this is by them explicitly saying, this is not a heresy. This is a community where we are learning. If you feel uncomfortable speaking or sharing your, um, question, you can type it in the chat. I will make sure that I am reading this questions. And just by this little difference, it means the world to someone that is not used to being in the spotlight.
So that's one example. That's a really, yeah, that's a really good example. I could also see it, like if perhaps somebody is. Neuro-diverse maybe articulating verbally a question would also be more challenging than if they have time ahead of time to kind of think about it and put it in a written format that they can drop into the chat as well.
Absolutely. And, and I mean, we can make a list, right? So let's say if we're talking about, um, business owners that have primarily clients from the U S. People tend to assume that their first language is going to be engaged when in fact might not be the case. And when we are learning, we tend to default to our mother tongue.
That means that we are processing the information on an emotional level. So what can we do to help them offer, offer transcripts? For example, if you're a participant. First language is not the language that you also share as first language, help them feel safe and help them learn and process the information.
So there are a lot of subtleties that we talk about when we work together on programs and courses that go beyond setting the outcome. What are the benefits that are also relevant, but they don't make a learning experience. Yeah. And I know, um, when we were working together, one example you gave that I like was, you know, when you're giving examples of, let's say other businesses that are like, in, in my case, it was, uh, other, other businesses or other brands that are living out their truth really boldly in their marketing.
And you said, oh, one way to kind of signal. Uh, you know, like cultural competency or sensitivity or just making people feel more welcome is to think more broadly about like global brands or people who, uh, live in various places. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I wouldn't have even crossed my mind because for me, I only see what I see.
Yes. And, and, and that's understandable. We all do that. We all do that. It's not that I don't do it. Um, so it's, it's more of embracing the fact that we are going to default to our bias. That's just how it is. But the more aware we are of that particular fact, the more we can take care of, um, including, um, Many resources or tools that are going to keep us from just serving one very small group of people because the world is huge.
And if we are operating online, it means that we are not limited by geographical. Uh, Restrictions, you can have customers or clients from everywhere. I work with clients from Singapore to Hawaii, um, and I'm based in the Netherlands. So I adore that, but that also pushes me to be mindful of the fact that my examples might not be relevant to them.
So I make an effort to find examples that are. Easy to relate to. I love that. And what are some other ways as you've worked with various clients over the years, that other sort of examples of things that were relatively easy to. Infuse into a program or a course or something like that. That was literally just something that they hadn't thought of, or they had overlooked or, you know, something that you're like, I know that this right here will honor people's intersections and I'm going to, I'm going to incorporate that.
Um, so something that has been very useful lately with my last clients is to. Whenever, whenever we get to the part of the curriculum itself, because there's a whole process before that. But whenever we reached that point, okay, so now we're getting to break down the curriculum into modules and lessons and whatnot.
Instead of thinking about this is what I need to teach them. We think about what are the preconceived notions that they might have. And when we do this, we are, we are talking two things. First. We remove the idea of if they don't get it, or if they don't learn it is because they have limiting beliefs, which I personally have a huge problem with that.
Um, because it's not true. Like societal oppression is a real thing. Um, so when we think about, okay, so what are the preconceived, uh, preconceived ideas or notions that they might have? We are already in order to answer that question. We are integrating cultural background. We are integrating. Maybe they are, uh, like you said, maybe they are newer divers.
Maybe they come from marginalized identities, um, underrepresented communities. And that means that they have specific notions around this topic that I want to address. So we ask ourselves as the graders or facilitators of the course. What are some preconceived notions that someone might have around these.
And from there, we start building up how we present the topic, and I always try to encourage my clients because of course these decisions are ultimately theirs, but I always encourage them to take, um, an approach that he's not. That is more inviting for an auto learner. So it's not, it's stepping away from the lecture module and embracing, um, inquiry and curiosity.
Um, and that has been so presently, very welcomed by my clients. And I say, surprisingly, because it's not easy, it's not easy to sit there and ask yourself all these questions when you could just say. Do they, we're going to talk about how to close a sales school. You know, if you start from, okay, what might they be thinking?
What do I think when I say this? Um, where is that coming from? I, how is it that, that this is now I believe in my head. It, that is not easy, but it's very rewarding. And it makes your students or participants, you. Welcomed and seen, and like, they are not, uh, ignorant, uh, and you're not placing blame on them.
Um, they don't feel guilt either. They didn't know this before, so he's just creating a more wholesome learning experience. Yeah. I really like that. And it's kind of, um, one thing. Popped into my mind was about how I know that like the sat tests in America, there's been, you know, all of these examples of how it has really biased language because of the people who are writing the questions and how even things like, I think there was a question I don't know.
Still on there and iteration is still on there of it, but I think it had to do with like fencing, like fence posts, like for, you know, like in a rural area. And it was like, well, if you've never been to a rural area, you would not actually know, like, you would have no idea what they're even talking about.
Um, and it's how it's interesting because I feel like it's so easy. If you're the person writing that question. And you've lived in an area that has that style of fence posts. You just sort of are operating under the assumption that like, oh, everybody, everybody knows this. Right. And then, yeah, like you said, when somebody doesn't, it's not just like, well, I don't know, let me do the math and you know, is it a, B, C, or D.
You're having like this existential crisis. Cause you're like, I don't even know what this thing is that they're talking about. So yeah, that's, that's really interesting to think about. And even like jargony words, I know I was doing a free training recently and I said the word evergreen, and somebody asked in the chat, like, what does that mean?
And I forget because I primarily work with more established entrepreneurs who even if they don't have an evergreen. Program or course, like they've heard that, that jargon they, and so I was like, oh, oh yeah, I'm sorry. Let me go back and let me explain what evergreen means, but it's easy how, you know, and that's not even something that's right.
In insensitive or racially biased or whatever. It's just like you just forget when something becomes so common to how you experience life, because we get so, and this is why I say, like, if we all have this, we all go through this. We get, so hyper-focused focused on refining our own skills. They, it. We get in our own head.
Right. We forget that not everybody has access to our brain. So this just reminds me that very recently they find any nails. The actual recipe for that type of concrete, the Romans used, and we have had the recipe for many, many years now. Like, I mean, Romans, um, but the recipe said water. So in our age, water is H2O.
But for them wider meant something else. It was a mixture of water and something else. So, but for them, we're writing, we'll understand what water use right now. But hundreds of years later, we come into this recipe. It's like, I, why is it not working? So that's safe scenario is what happens in your courses and in your programs.
If you just assume that everybody is at your same level, which by the way, if they are, why would they be taking your program? Um, we are missing on helping them develop their skills. Yeah, absolutely. And why, like, in this, uh, you know, like in this, in this era where we're trying to be more sensitive and everything, like, what does this actually.
Do you for are businesses, like other than just being like, okay, well, it feels good, but like, you know, I feel like there are things in business that are like very direct ROI and then others that are like a little more indirect. And I feel like it's, uh, I was actually just talking to a client this morning about this.
There are various things where it's like, oh, okay. You know, like everyone wants to hire, I don't know, a social media manager whenever, cause they want to spend more time off social media. But when it comes to something like, okay, well let's make my program better when there's a million other things that they can invest in.
What is like for somebody who's in it for the long haul and also. Really wants to be an inclusive entrepreneur. Like what else does this kind of do for their business beyond just making them sort of feel good about having it done? Well in marketing lingo, we always talk about customer loyalty. Um, and whenever that discussion is happening, I never really understand why they place all these efforts into the onboarding sequence and the email nurture sequence in, and then invite them for these.
And when just being a real human talking to another human, when you're running your chorus makes up for everything else. So if we want to look at things hard and dry, just like
the real. Down to the facts. If you take the time to educate yourself and understand that the people that come through your course or program are people not numbers.
And you take the time to look at their intersections and create an experience that makes them feel safe. And like they w they are able to be courageous and speak their mind. Um, you are in fact creating customer loyalty because the experience, when, when you do that, you, you are directly directing, nurturing the emotional side of learning, which is a big part of successful learning.
Learning is not only the instructional side is how you felt. When you were learning and you can think about these, everybody that is listening right now. I just want you to pause for a second and think back to your favorite class ever. What do you really remember about that class? Do you remember the syllabus?
I bet you don't. I bet you remember something that happened during that class, something fun, something inspiring that your teacher is saying. Or if it's the worst class ever, then you, you remember that you felt terrible. For something that happened. And that is because we ingrained what we're learning in the emotional side of our brain.
So back to the courses online, when you take the time to treat people, like people like you're equals, you are creating a successful emotional experience. And that translates to customer loyalty, but ultimately. Eat create a brand that is honest, and that is very referrable. They will become your ambassadors.
So then you don't have to spend more money on affiliate programs because they will do it for free because they believe that you are someone that is worth to invest their time. I love that. And I feel like that point is really where you and I first connected about being so dismayed with a lot of the large programs in the online community, because it often seems like.
It is just about the numbers. It's always, you know, trying to have the next launch better than the last and the future launch better than the pre you know, the current one and, and not a lot of mindfulness around getting truly the right people in and. Serving them really well, versus just being able to say, oh, I had a, you know, $500,000 launch.
I had a million dollar launch, you know, whatever the case. Um, yeah. And I just, I feel like we all know people, uh, and ourselves, like who've gone through this. Those programs and then been like, you know what, at that kind of, it wasn't a super great experience. Or I felt like I spent more than the value I got.
Or like you said earlier, if something doesn't work, it's just chalked up to like, it's a limiting belief or you're self sabotaging or whatever when you're, or like, actually, no, this is just not how I would ever. Do some, like, I just wouldn't want to do that. Like this doesn't feel right. So, yeah. I'm, I'm so glad that you, that you brought that up because I, I do think that that is, uh, something that is, seems to be changing.
And I hope that the trajectory keeps changing in the direction of. W like treating people like people and business. Imagine that what a novel delusionary, right. Revolution revolutionary. But I think, I think it is, you know, it's like there are ways to do it and that's where your
expertise comes in, where it's like, you can still have big, successful launch.
You can still make a lot of money. And you can make sure that the thing that you are promising actually gets delivered when the right people go through it. Obviously they have to do the work too. They can't like learn by osmosis, but that, like, it's not an either or it's a, both, and you can have a lot of success from your courses and your programs and serve the people who have invested in you really, really well.
Absolutely. And that's part of reframing the whole education system. Um, a lot of entrepreneurs that I've talked to in the past year, they are so disappointed with their own experience inside the education system from primary to graduate school. And yet when the time comes to create their own programs, they are just replicating the same system, ways, numbers, uh, hierarchy, very high, no access to the professor, lecture style, no feedback.
And my quest is to challenge them, do this mental thing. Because the systems only exist when we uphold them. Like if we don't replicate them, they are gone. So we have that opportunity online. We have the opportunity to do those things differently, even when they are essentially as simple as treating people, like you're equals that doesn't happen, uh, offline.
Uh, and we know that. But we can create that, you know, or universe. Yeah. I really, I appreciate that because it does, it makes it feel like, oh, it's not hopeless. Like it, it really like empowers us to be the ones to make a new way, a new way forward, which is cool. And one last thing before, I want you to talk about how you work with people and where they can find you and all of that.
But cause I know a lot of the people who you have worked with and they, you know, have really thriving businesses and they make really good money and they work also with really high caliber people. And I think often where this conversation. Goes is kind of like how you said at the beginning, like, oh, I'll just put different currency on my sales page or, oh, I'll just, I'll just find like a really diverse stock image and slap it up and then like, we'll call it good.
I feel like the other thing that people default to is, oh, I have to really keep the price low on my offer in order to be. Inclusive. And I just want you to talk about that because I know that like a lot of the people whose programs she work on, they're not necessarily like $200 courses, they're higher ticket offers.
And so, I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that just since you kind of get to see behind the scenes of so many people's businesses? Yes. Um, I get the privilege to see the backend, to find a lot of businesses. Um, the thing that I would say is that creating inclusive spaces and safe spaces in your courses has nothing to do with the price point of your product.
You can be a terrible person and charge 10,000 and or. $200 and you can be an amazing facilitator that delivers transformation and have the same two different price points. What I do is that I do encourage them the higher, the price point. The more attention. I want them to pay to their own biases as facilitators.
And the more attention we pay to the people, to their, the group as a whole, how are they
interacting? Um, because normally these programs are more expensive than to be more interactive within there. The participants, the programs are a little bit less, uh, pricey. There isn't much room for interaction because they become massive products.
And when we are in this refined curated container, um, we need to be very mindful of the culture that we are creating inside that container. Um, so that's also something that recovered together. Um, I know it's something that we also talked about, uh, when we were looking at the community guidelines and the values for your community, um, because you, you are modeling.
Knowingly or unknowingly, you are modeling how someone can run their business. And when people come through your door, they are not only learning what you say, they're learning what you're doing. So when these courses are very high, like high ticket, high ticket, a lot of attention goes into the culture that will be, we are building inside the container and not only the curriculum.
I like that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for talking about that because I do think, yeah, I think it's just something, you know, and I, I will say as like, as a white person, like, it's usually like well-intentioned white people, white women who are like, well, I just, you know, I, I'm just, I want to make sure that there's like a lower price thing.
And I, and I've talked to people like even other entrepreneur, women of color, friends of mine who are like, I don't want people to assume I can't pay, like, I'm happy to pay the price. That's not, it's not about the price. It's that like, I don't want to be end up being in a community where. It's I feel unwelcome.
I'm happy to pay the price for the transformation, for the value, whatever, but I don't want to feel uncomfortable while I'm also paying that price. Yes. Imagine that you have to, I don't know, pay 10,000 and, and you cannot be yourself because you're expected to assimilate into whomever is running the process.
Well, I would ask for my money back because that type of program should be about expansion, right? Not, not the opposite. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, how can people work with you? How can they learn more? I mean, all of the info is going to be in the show notes too, so nobody has to memorize it, but yeah. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?
Yes. Like I said, if you are a business owner and you have a lot of ideas and intellectual property sitting in your bright brain, you would think. Hm, I would love to work with you helping you organize these into two different things. One could be your signature course or program, um, or my main offer amaze.
My main surveys is creating certification programs. And the reason that that is my flagship, um, surveys is because, like I said, I'm a one woman revolution and I believe that. We can reshape knowledge and read these through Butte power in the world. And we can do that, sharing what we know best. So if you have a proven method and you want to increase your impact and help others create their dream knives, then let's create your certification program together.
I love it. And just briefly explain what kind of like for people who maybe don't know, what
does it mean to even have your program certified and what can that, can that do for you or allow, uh, you know, other people to do? Sure. Certifying people through your method means that you are creating a repeatable process.
You are either teaching them how to use your proven method to achieve results, or you are teaching them how to teach their clients that same method. There are many examples for these. Um, if you have ever taking a personality test, for example, um, that's a digital product. You get your results. You're happy to see and find something more about yourself.
Great. But that is just an entry product for that business. They most likely have a path where you can become a certified advisor. Okay. Based on that, that means that you will acquire a set of skills that is going to help you interpret those results for the personality test and use them to guide your clients to whatever transformation you want to deliver.
Um, the difference between having a certification program and, or a certificate program, and of course is the individualized feedback or assessment. When you are running a group coaching program, or when you have a course, there is no room for you to give specific feedback on their progress, or how can they refine their skills even.
A certificate program involves a moment where you have to provide that specific feedback through your PR each and one of your participants, all of them have to receive it. And so they know how are they doing and what needs to be improved in order to reach that level of mastery in whatever skill set you promise.
It is a great way to increase the level of, um, draining that you are delivering increase your impact position, your brand. Um, this means thesis. You're basically saying to the world, I am the only person that can teach you how to do this in this particular way. And now you will be able to do the same. Um, and it is a great business model for established business owners, because you don't have to increase in numbers because he's a high ticket offer.
so you still maintain high level of touch. And, um, interaction between the participants. So you don't overwork yourself, but your business is growing at the same time. That's so cool. I feel like that is such a, an under utilized model. And now my brain is swirling with ideas, but I love it. I love it. It's so it's so great.
And I appreciate you. I appreciate your time. I know it's super late over by you. It's late in the evening, so I will let you go, but this was really awesome. This was so fun. Yeah, thank you for being here and thank you for doing the amazing work that you do. Thank you. You so much for this conversation. Any anybody wants to continue feel free to reach out?
I love the thoughtful conversations, um, and would like to know what you think. Yeah, definitely. Good. Go check her out.
