Ep. 121: The Nuance of Value-Based Pricing w/ Danait Berhe
Pricing is very subjective. Even value based pricing is subjective. We have to stop dictating how people price without understanding the full context of their business, audience, or expertise and experience. So much of pricing advice is to just "increase your rates" or "double your rates," and while that can work, sometimes that isn't even what would make a huge impact on sales for someone.
Because I know this is an area where nearly every entrepreneur struggles, and there's so much conflicting advice out there on it, I wanted to get the viewpoint of an expert who has been doing this for various clients for over a decade. You're going to love it!
Danait is the founder and lead strategist of The Asmara Agency. TAA is an award-winning branding agency that helps mission driven companies craft compelling brand and messaging strategies that position them as the go-to in their industry. Danait’s unique inside out approach that comes from her decade long background in analytical research, marketing, and sales has helped her clients not only increase their income but their impact as well! When she’s not building brands she is most likely eating pizza, drinking wine, and re-watching the Golden Girls for the 1000th time.
Links:
Website- theasmaraagency.com
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I am so thrilled to bring my friend denier on, to talk about the nuance of pricing and value and all of those things that can be. So incredibly tricky, but she does such a beautiful job explaining all of it that I know you are going to.
Go away from this episode, just feeling so much more clear on how to think about pricing and valuing your offers in your business. So denied bear Berra is the founder and lead strategist of the Asmara agency. T AA is an award-winning branding agency that helps mission driven companies, craft compelling brand and messaging strategies that position them as the go-to in their industry.
The Knight's unique inside out approach that comes from her decade long background in analytical research. Marketing and sales has helped her clients not only increase their income, what their impact as well. When she's not building brands, she is most likely eating pizza, drinking wine, and rewatching the golden girls for the hundredth time.
So can you, can you see by that? Why tonight and I are friends, why do we get along so well? Uh, she is the absolute best and, um, I, I know that this, uh, conversation that we have is going to be so illuminating to listen to. So without further ado on to the episode, hi, tonight, welcome to the, sell it sister podcast.
I am really excited to talk to you. We've been planning this interview for a while. Cannot wait. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much for having me. I so, so, so excited too, to be here and to be chatting with you. Yeah. So this, um, we, well, we're going to be talking today about pricing and messaging that needs to go with that pricing and a lot of the other nuance of pricing.
And I know I have other episodes on this, but I swear, I feel like this is something that cannot be talked about enough because it's one of the things. I see my clients struggling with, I know you see your clients struggling with, and so, yeah, I'm really excited because you're such an expert on messaging and branding and all of the other components that can go into commanding different prices.
But I just to give a little, the listeners, a little backstory, this really started because, um, several months ago, I don't even know how we started chatting in the DMS about it, but we were chatting back and forth about this. The idea of like, just double your rates, just triple your rates and how, what sometimes end up ends up happening is when people do that.
And when they get over the hurdle of. Like even being able to quote that price and they actually get that price that it doesn't necessarily mean that the value is there and it can cause some hard feelings for the person who invested. And it it's just like a misalignment. And so we were chatting back and forth and then I was like, we need to have a larger conversation.
Other people need to be brought into this. So that's how, that's how we ended up here today. Yes. Yes. So you guys are getting a sneak peek into this DM conversation. You all are. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So first, before we, before we go into all of that, why don't you. Um, just
talk a little bit about, like, I know in the, in the intro I gave your bio and all of that, but just like a little bit of a deeper dive into what you do and who you work with and like your backstory on that.
Yeah. Yeah. So I work with, um, usually mostly women entrepreneurs on their branding and really helping them to build a brand that allows them to. Communicate effectively what they're trying to say and create like a compelling brand around what they're building that mission and that vision that they have so that they can attract clients consistently.
And I started off just doing branding. Cause I didn't think that my, I had years and years of marketing and sales experience and. And all of those things and psychology is a part of my background as well. And I always, but I didn't think like anyone would pay to learn or have that like strategic aspect into their business.
And so I was like, well, people pay to like have designed work and I was good at that. Building websites from the days of like, you know, my faith, the good old days. Yeah, yeah. To anyone who is not of a certain age, you're like, what the hell is my space? Like, listen yet. We used to code. Okay. We were like teenagers coding.
Um, this weird website with music and glitter background. Gosh, you could change your profile with your mood. Okay. It was fabulous. It was great. So, um, I was like, well, I can start with that. And I kind of just started doing that, but I realized that a lot of my clients really needed help with. The messaging really going deeper into strategy and figuring out, like, what is your value proposition?
Like, why are we building this brand? And so often people are getting caught up in the design aspect, like, oh, the colors and what font are we going to be using? And what design details are we going to be adding when really, we hadn't really nailed down a lot of that. That, um, that deeper work of, okay, what needs to be said and how, how does it need to be said so that the right people are attracted to it?
And so a lot of my work started shifting towards brand strategy and then even honing in even more on to really like messaging, positioning strategy and essentially teaching my clients the psychology of decision-making, um, of like how people make decisions. And then how can you create content and messaging that.
Aligns with how people already are making decisions in their brain. And so, yeah, it moved more towards like messaging and positioning strategy. And so that's essentially what I help my clients do is come up with compelling messaging that helps them, you know, attract the right people all the time. I love that.
I love that. And I know that that is something that is often missing in the conversation around just raising your rates, which is, yeah. It's, uh, You can't just always like slap a new price on something and have it make sense for the people that you have already been talking to. So do you have any, I mean, I, I could think of like a bunch of ideas off the top of my head or like, or examples of this, but do you have any that you think of, or like you've seen where you're like, this is just such a disconnect here or like, this is why.
Launch, maybe didn't go as well, or, you know, just any of those circumstances. Yeah. So, um,
an example that I've seen a lot is where people have a really great service that's one-on-one right. And then. It's a high touch, because obviously they're involved in the execution, they're doing a done for you or done with you type of situation.
And they want to scale it, which nothing is wrong with that. And they decide to move it into like a course or a program type setting and remove a lot of the aspects that made the service valuable in the first place. And the reason we know that it's valuable is because we ask the customers, right. It's not like we're just coming up with us.
It's like, what was valuable to you about this one-on-one service? A lot of times it was. The one-on-one support the fact that someone was walking me through this, the fact that I had access to the expert to ask them questions and get like feedback specifically about my thing and in an effort to like scale and systemize and, and, and automate as much as we possibly can.
We remove a lot of that. Right. I see a lot of people doing that. They're remove a lot of the things that made that service valuable while keeping the price the same or increasing. Yeah. And then it becomes a disconnect for their ideal audience. Saw a value in their service because of the attention that they got from this expert.
And then they're like, well, that doesn't make sense to me. Like where is that? Where is that thing that I find valuable included in this service? So what we're doing when we are pricing something essentially is that we are trying to convey a value. That's more valuable than the amount of money we're asking for.
So essentially someone is saying the $3,000 you're asking for that's in my pocket is less valuable than the outcome that you're going to provide me through the service. I'm willing to exchange that, to get this out right. Because that's more valuable than the $3,000 or $2,000 or whatever, or the $29, whatever it is that I have in my pocket.
Right. And so when we sometimes strip away some of the, the things that are of value to our customers in order to increase our rates or to scale or whatever the case may be, I see that a lot with people who come to me and are like, oh, well, this launch didn't go well. Or like my services aren't selling.
And then I will go back and I'm like, okay, well, what have you done? Like, have you made any changes? Oh, yeah. Well, I did take away all of these things that were valuable about the service and it's like, okay, it doesn't, that's where the disconnect is. And we either need to add those things back in, or we need to find a messaging that.
That shows the value of this new thing in a way that gets people there mentally, where they're like, oh, okay, I see what you're saying. I see why this is a better way than the way that you were doing it. I see why you needed to remove all these things and why it's better for me that the service is provided in this new way.
Like one of those two things need to happen. Otherwise we're just like in that loop, right? Yeah. That makes sense. No, it completely does. And I think, um, and I know that, you know, like one of the things that is so common in this is like people think, well, I, I need to make it more valuable. So I'm just going to throw more stuff in it to artificially.
The value, but then it actually gets like really overwhelming for people. So how do you suggest, um, in that instance? So like, let's take it from both angles, right? So somebody who is like selling out there they're one-to-one right. They're like highest price and they want to. Take themselves kind of out of that, so they can impact more people or at like a different kind of in air quotes, more accessible, like price point.
Um, and then also the people who are ready to start charging more, but feel really scared about like, how do I convey that value? Like, what are some. Things that people can kind of think about to convey a value, which feels like God, that just feels like so elusive and challenging. Yeah. It really, um, it really does.
And it. There's both like, to me, it's like both an art and a science of like number, like you're playing a numbers game. Cause you gotta do the numbers and make sure it's a value it's value to them and valuable to you as well to provide this service and feel good and be profitable and all the good things.
Right. Um, so there's the number crunching side and then there's the art side to it. So what I I'm in, um, In my work with clients and even in, um, a program I'm developing, this is going to be something that I walk people through is I call it the bridge method to creating an offer where you kind of think about like where someone's starting, where are they ending?
And then what are the milestones in between those two points that you need to address within the service? If you're saying like, this is your problem, this is how I solve it. What are like, The cause there are little wins that happen along the way, like a has little moments that happen that get them to that resolution right.
To that transformation. So what are all of those things? And so we map that out, right? And then we look at what things are essential to getting this result, what things, so for the person who feels like they have to add everything in, and this is great because it's like, is this really necessary? Could they get the same result without this piece, without this part of the puzzle.
Um, and really like narrow it down because value isn't always about value when we're solving a problem, which we're all doing value is not about how much can I add to, to justify this price point or to be able to charge more. It's really about how quickly am I solving this problem for this person. That is literally what we have to we're problem solvers.
And we're telling people, you have this problem that you've been stuck trying to figure out on your own. I will walk you through it and I can help you do it much faster than you could get there on your own. And so asking yourself that question on either side of the equation of the person who wants to like charge more and feels like they have to add more or someone who's wanting to like remove themselves.
It's like, what parts of your process are the parts that actually helps someone get to that solution? 10 times faster than they would on their own. That makes it a value. And then you want to figure out what is the messaging that really highlights that value point. So that's the person who's wanting the service can really see, like, and then it doesn't become about how much is included.
It doesn't become about the features and benefits and like all the bells and whistles that are
included, it really becomes about is this person, the right person to solve my problem. And is their methods the most effective way that I feel like. Help solve my problem. And if you can do those two things, then pricing becomes about, you know, being able to figure out like the audience who they are, can they tend to afford for these rates?
What feels good to you? What's a good middle ground for both of you where it's a value to them, a value to you. And then that can be like the numbers part. Um, but yes, like that's where I would, that's where I would start is trying to figure out those pieces because that will really help to. Also get good feedback from people to give you realistic feedback about like, whether a price point makes sense for that.
Because if you can communicate how valuable it is, then they might be like, oh yeah, I'd definitely pay this amount. And it's probably double what you were thinking. Right. And then you're able to get there, you know? Um, so yeah. Does that? I hope that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, no, it, it really does. And are there ways that you suggest, like, I know one thing that is really, um, super tricky, I feel like, especially for, you know, online entrepreneurs, women in particular, who like, when we are really good at the thing that we are really good at and it comes easily.
To us. I know it's so hard to be like, oh, that's valuable because in our mind we're like, isn't that just like second nature that you would know that, or like, you know, maybe not second nature, but you're like, oh, I can just like, it took me like two seconds to give you an answer to that. And it got you unstuck or help, you know, whatever, whatever the case is.
Um, I know it's like so hard intrinsically to see what we do as valuable a lot of the time, because it feels like if it's easy, I shouldn't get paid really well for it. Or like, I'm going to be, you know, if I charge more for this, I'm going to be, you know, exploiting people or making people mad, you know? Or like any of those things.
When you were, when you were in the thick of it and you are too close to it, what are some ways that you suggest. Fact-finding uh, kind of about the value. Is it with like interviews? Is it talking to past clients? Like, yeah. Yeah. So I like to do a few different things. I have a background in, uh, being a research scientist.
So like research is my jam. Love it. We'll do it all day every day if I could. Uh, and so a lot of times when, so when I was doing a lot of brand strategy work for companies and startups and, um, doing this phase of like figuring out. What's valuable about someone's service, what they're like does their, what are their price points and all of those things, especially with like tech, startups and software, that's like a lot of what they do is figuring out like, you know, there's three tiers of service and that's like a whole thing.
A lot of times what we would do is we would, um, start with, uh, interviewing customers and really diving into. Why did you pick this? What things did you try before? That's such a good question to ask, because what you can do is then what you want to do is essentially extrapolate what would someone pay to solve this problem over the course of.
A year, two years, whatever. So when we say, what have you tried in the past, that is a good way to understand like what your market competitors, but also it's a good way to understand what someone has already invested to solve this problem. And so a lot of times people have
invested a lot. Like, you know, they've hired this person, they've gone to a specialist they've learned from courses and you can also ask them, like, we, we always used to ask also, like, how much would you say you've invested to solve this problem up until this point of your business of your life.
And they can give you that, but you can also then kind of take a look and see like, okay, How much would someone spend to solve this problem of getting their messaging? Right. Maybe they've taken a bunch of courses. Maybe they've hired a bunch of people and maybe they've done their own reading. They bought a bunch of books and that can help get you out of like your own head space, because yes, it is hard when it's something that comes naturally to you.
It's really hard to get yourself removed from that, to take a step back and be able to really be like, this is a value to someone else, even when, cause I struggle with this all the time. Even when someone is paying you, like, they're like, yeah, sure. Sign me up. Like, and signing on the dotted line, it's still hard for you to be like, I'm like sometimes I'm like, is that for real?
Like, like, do they really need that? Like help? Like can they do that on their own kind of thing? Uh couldn't they have done this by themselves. Like why would they need me? And. And so it's really hard to take that step back. And this always helps me to see the broader context of like, oh, okay. This person is willing to invest in this thing because they already have, they've already done that.
And it hasn't worked. And I know that my thing is going to work. I know that I'm going to be able to help them get from point a to point B because of my. You know, my expertise, the fact that I have this process that I've worked with other clients. Um, and so really looking at that as one way, like a very data driven way.
And also just going back to your previous clients and seeing what they've said about you, and if you don't collect testimonials at any, do it, do it, do it all the time as part of your offboarding. It's a great reminder, even if you never post them. It's a great reminder to you of why someone felt. And it could just be that, like, it was you, you helping them through, this was so much, so much value.
They were willing to invest in this service because they needed that. And so I like to go attack that from a more data driven perspective, because we also underestimate how much people are willing to invest, to solve problems that are of value to them. Um, we think like, you know, where we don't think enough about the fact that someone yeah.
Oh, yeah, this is a value. This is a problem. And that, that goes back to solving a problem that actually needs to be solved. If you're solving a problem in someone's life and business, that they want a need to be solved. They've probably invested in solving that in the past. And it, if it, if it has worked, then obviously they're not coming to you and they probably wouldn't be in your audience, but if it didn't work, that's why they're in your circle.
Um, and so you can, it's a sure bet that like, Are on the right track in terms of pricing. Like you can, I think we get too caught up in that without realizing that like, we're probably most of the time undercharging in some scenarios, if we take a look at the data and the numbers and we're like, wait, you've spent how much to solve this problem.
And you're like, yeah. Oh, okay. You're like, okay. I'm okay. Like I can.
Oh, my gosh. Right, right. It's funny to look at, especially in the tech space where they do like, you know, monthly memberships or monthly payments, and it's like, you know, $29 or $30 product and they do so much testing. Just that like, okay, well we want to increase it by $2, you know, like, is that, and it's, there's so much there, but then we look at the numbers and I'm like, someone has spent $10,000 to solve this problem.
Like you're $39 a month on your software is going to be, they're going to be okay. And when you talk to the customers, they're like, I couldn't believe that. Price point because I've spent so much doing X, Y, and Z, and never could solve this problem. And here's the software that does this problem, like solution for me.
And so if we are again, solving a really high value problem and doing it in the most efficient way possible, we are probably within the range of what someone has spent to solve it over. The course of this problem has been existing in their life, their business. Yeah, I love that. That makes it so incredibly clear.
And I also, yeah, it's like, especially, you know, talking to entrepreneurs and thinking about like all of the things, you know, in a year that you might invest in. And adding it all up, like, oh my gosh, you got the courses, the digital downloads, the memberships, the, I mean, just so, so many things where you're like, wow, okay.
Um, it really like, it really adds up. Um, but yeah, and I, I also know this is something that, again, it's been hard for me to. Learn. And I think it's, it's really hard to conceptualize. Like it comes up with my clients all the time is the, that there is so much value in like just holding space for someone like it's so intangible and it feels like.
Well, I mean, like, what's that worth like, oh, they get some like Vox or access to me or they can email between call, you know, like what, like, what is that really? That's not really, it takes me, you know, 10 minutes, five minutes to do. But from the other point of view, it's so valuable to the other person that it's hard because it's not.
It's just so incredibly intangible. And I feel like it works sort of outside that normal capitalism of like, you paid me this, and then I'm giving you this deliverable that you can see smell, touch, you know, like, whatever, whatever the thing is. It's like, I'm just charging somebody to like, hold space for them.
Like, that seems like I'm scamming them, but it's like, no. Some like a lot of times for the other person just having that is like a revelation. Like it can make all of the difference in their day and yeah. It's, it's like incredibly. Yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. Over here. No one can see me, but it's up there. I'm like nodding my head, like, yes.
Um, because I think that that holding space, like we can't do that for ourselves because it's hard to do that when you're. In the experience like you're trying to have a subjective and objective view. Like that's hard to do, especially when there's like a lot of mind stuff that goes with whatever thing you are trying to work on in your, um, in your business.
Usually it's really hard to sometimes you have like that burst of clarity, but then you're right
back day two, like the next day you're back in it. And you need that. There is so much value in, in creating that type of. Container for people. I'm a firm believer that people have the answers that they need.
Like, you know, like, you know what your vision is and, you know, you have all the answers you need. Like, you don't need to look outside of yourself for those, but I also am a firm believer in, sometimes you need to. Someone you trust who can hold that space to help pull those answers out of you to help like shine a light on the areas that maybe you aren't being attuned to, that someone could be like, well, well, well, let's go back to that one word that you said there.
And you're like, well, mind blown had not thought about that. And now you had like this whole new perspective. Um, I like to think of it as like a pivot point. Like we are pivot points. Whenever someone's coming up against problem. It's like they're going across a road and there, and then they come up against a roadblock, right?
It's kind of like someone with blinders on who comes up against a roadblock and they just don't know how to get past that roadblock. It's like, you try to climb over it and you can't, and you're trying to like walk around it. But the reason is because your perspective is looking at the roadblock and you're like, I don't know how I'm going to climb this thing.
Like I, and what someone does, who comes alongside you and your business to support you? Solving this problem is they kind of are like this person standing off to the side. Who's like, Hey, over here. And then they turn right. And it's like, oh, the roadblock is no longer there because my perspective has shifted.
And you didn't have that. You didn't know that you could pivot in that way or look in this other direction or look at the problem in a different way to be like, oh, that problem no longer exists because I was looking at it this way. But now that my perspective has shifted, I have this whole new. Like, oh, I have this whole new perspective or this whole new solution that I had ever even seen before.
And that, that is incredibly valuable because you're accelerating that for someone like you're accelerating that introspection, that space, that, that, that container that they need to be able to get to that faster. And so I think that that is, I joined so many things where that was literally where I just that's what I needed.
I was like, yeah. Like, I worked with you on creating like an outline for the, my program because I needed that. I was like, I just need someone who's going. And like, I have like this outline and everything. I need someone though who's going to like take, help me, like create a container, a space for me to just.
Kind of share my thoughts and get out of my own head. And that was like, so worth it so valuable to me that I was like, yes, yes, I need this kind of support. And I think we underestimate that a lot, but that's usually what a lot of us need is that container, right? Yeah. I, I love that so much. Cause it's almost like, um, uh, my, my son plays a lot of video games and stuff.
Yeah. Um, I remember being a kid having intense though. And there was like Nintendo power
magazine would give you like the cheat codes. Right. So you could like learn like in Mario or whatever, like where all the secret portals and like things, you know, things were, um, so you could like get ahead and you could skip entire levels, like in the original Mario, right?
Like you could skip over a whole like levels and just get ahead to the castles and everything. Um, and that, like, your analogy made me think of that. It's like, You're yeah. When you have that roadblock, like if, if nobody ever shows showed you or, uh, you didn't accidentally like stumble across it yourself, you might not realize like, oh, if I, if, if you just go down that one tube, it like sends you all the way ahead.
I never, I never realized that. Right. And I feel like once you know, that that's like where the secret portal is, your like, Well, it feels, how was this valuable? Right? Like I already know it and like, whatever, it seems silly that somebody would care that much. But like there, you know, somebody who really wants to beat the game and, you know, wants those cheat codes or those secret portals is going to be like, heck yeah.
Like tell me, like, I want to know, like tell me Nintendo power magazine. Like I'm going to buy you. Like get those cheat codes and move ahead. And I feel like that's what it is. It's like, it's not like, I mean, other than cause you obviously, you know, part of your business is deliverables, but like for a lot of us, there is no.
Um, like, like a lot of this information could just be found for free. Like people could just learn it on their own, but that's just taking hours and hours and hours. The benefit to working with somebody who's already like found the portals. Is they tell you where the portals are. Exactly. Yes. Yes. And that's been a huge hurdle for me as I like move towards.
Creating a program was like, is this still valuable? If there are no deliverables other than like the templates, the resources, the things that in my eyes on you're like, is that valuable enough? And that's like a really, that is an interesting game that we play in our own mind. It's like all of our own mind stuff where we're like, oh, but they're not getting anything.
Tangible that I've delivered that I worked on personally myself and spent hours putting together and giving to them. Will this still be a value? And yes, it is because it's yours. It's your cheat code. So you're giving them and they're like, yes, yes. Please give that to me because I'm tired of like spinning my wheels in this one place and I want to start to move forward and you can help me do that because you're going to show me where the little tube thing is, and I'm going to be able to slide down and finally make some momentum and progress.
That's. Yeah. That's definitely something that I think all of us experience, especially when we're, when we're playing with pricing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And this is totally, I mean, I, I have done all of the, like I have for sure many times over undervalued something. Cause I had that thought like, you know, oh, they just, you know, it's just boxer and email and it's the, you know, and it's like, whatever in a Facebook or, you know, like whenever the thing is, is like I'm, I'm saying to myself, I don't know, that seems, it seems like it's not valuable enough until I'm in it.
And I start to see like transformations and things, and then I'm like, oh, what w what was I thinking? Like, I super should have charged more for this, but yeah. It's like, you just, you
can't, it's, it's so hard, like until you feel it and Noah and experience it from the people going through it, and you really realize like, oh yeah, I will never.
Be able to in under like capitalism or whatever, like, I will never be able to quantify the value of holding space of a container of access, uh, you know, of all of that, but like, That doesn't mean it's not hugely hugely valuable and that like, you deserve to be comp like fairly compensated for it. Yes, yes.
Yes. And that's the hard thing is like, yeah. If there's no way to quantify, like how do you put that value on like someone's time and their experience and their expertise. But yes. Yes. I that's like one of the most, like I said, for me even it's, that's been one of the most valuable things I've ever invested in is just having people who hold that space in that container.
And there's like no deliverables, but it's that ability to have someone who's like, Hm, this question, or even just asking like one simple question that to them, might've felt like that's like a normal question I would ask on a regular Tuesday to me would be. Wait, what? Like, I'd never, I'm like, this is blowing my mind and I think we have to, um, that's the only way we can know that is by asking our customers and clients to, to like reflect that back to us, because it's really hard to reflect that upon yourself.
Like, there's just like, it's just, we get into our own heads too much. And so asking your community, asking your audience really reflect that back to you is, um, it's so, so important for you to be yeah. To see the value that you're bringing to them. I think that's so important. Yeah. It, it really, it really, really is.
And I know too that like, uh, kind of, like we mentioned at the beginning, sometimes people are in a position where they're like, okay, I, I have been selling, you know, lower, uh, Lower ticket items like offers and I'm really ready to have, you know, maybe, maybe not get rid of those, but like, I want something that is higher.
I want to be paid better. I recognize I have value to give, but my, the people I'm serving right now with those offers are very like price sensitive. So I need to figure out who I'm going to, like, how am I going to have a higher priced offer? Who is that going to be for? Like, what is your process there?
Because yeah, like we've, uh, like we said, like it's sometimes when you slap on a higher price tag on something, it could not be selling because you haven't shifted your audience. And so of course they're not going to buy it because for them, it's just doesn't make any sense that they will. Spend so much more on that thing because they don't see that value exchange for it.
So how do you recommend, I know we've talked about it a little bit, but like, especially if you're not already working with that different type of clientele, what is a good way to sort of start figuring out and brainstorming? Like how do I nail my messaging? For that pivoted clientele that will pay me this.
Yeah. No, that's it. Um, that's a great question. So two, two things there. Number one, I would first say that sometimes we are, we make our own assumptions about what someone will afford and maybe like we're thinking well, because my audience has only bought my $27.
Yeah. They are not going to invest in this higher price thing.
And one of the best piece of advice I got early on was like, don't, don't be in somebody else's wallet. Like, that's not like you don't worry about that. You worry about, are you providing a service of value so that I would evaluate first, if that is, if it's you, that's putting that pressure on your audience, right.
You're kind of putting that, uh, you're projecting that onto your audience and really thinking about like, am I talking about this in a way that actually shows them the value enough? So that's part one, but you really could be part two is like, you really could be, like you said, having to shift into a brand new audience, especially if you've been serving one type of audience who really won't see the value of this like higher level thing that you're trying to put out there, because they're just not there yet.
Whether it's in their business or finances, whatever that looks like. Really, it has nothing to do with pricing. I always tell people this and when I work with clients and they're like, what? And it's like, no, it has an, when you make a sale, it never has anything to do with an, I was in sales for over a decade and it never is about the price point.
The thing, it is always about how effectively you've communicated, why this should matter. Why is this going to be the thing that solves the problem? Because once you get over that hurdle, there's no, that price point, essentially what you're trying to do is like, like I said before, make it so that they feel that whatever they're paying you is pales in comparison to.
What you've told them is the end goal of like the transformation. And so if you're not doing that enough and you feel like you're having a lot of like pricing conversations with people who are like, oh, well, that's not like a, that just feels like it's too much or that's too expensive. Or like, Yes. That could be the case for them.
There's one piece of that aspect, but if they're the right audience, if you're like, these are the people who should be able to pay for the service, because I know that they're investing in all these other things that are around the same price point. And I feel like. Like, I feel like, yeah, this is the right audience.
It's supposed to be able to like, could pay me this and I want to work with them. And I feel, I know that they're the right people for this. That means that there's a messaging disconnect that you're not conveying enough, the value, the PR like the problem that you're solving, how you're solving it, really walking them through that process.
And you're just trying to get them to jump from it. And it's usually a lot of times we, we talk a lot about the features and benefits, like all the bells and whistles, um, in our thing to get people to feel like this is valuable, but that's really not what sells it. Those are like added selling points.
Like when I have one-on-one sales conversations with people I hardly ever mentioned, like all the things, all the bells and whistles and features. And I have a great conversion rate because I specifically address what is that problem? How am I going to solve it and why that is so critically important that they solve it?
Like if you don't know those pieces, if you don't know. So when you pivot into this new audience, I really recommend. What are their pain points, the things that they struggle with. And I don't really like calling them pain points, but there's like the things that they're really coming up against these blocks that are like, Ooh, can't make it pass.
This. Don't know how to solve this, their challenges and really understanding why is it so important that they solve it? Like if you don't know why it's so important, you're not going to be able to communicate to them why this service would help them get to where they're going. Because if they don't know the why, even though a lot of people.
I know a lot of people who are like, well, I don't really need to know the why. Like I, I like to just go and do, do, do we still need as buyers when we're making a buying decision, we need to. Make that connection before we need to bridge that gap between like our emotions of like, yes, I want to get this and our rational part of our brain.
That's like, but why? Like, cause that's always kicks in, you know, we're always taught that like everyone buys with emotion. They do, but right before they hand over the credit card, there is a moment where your brain is like, okay. But why? Like there has to be. Like your rational brain kicks in and is like, cool, great, glad that you're excited, but also why.
And you need to help justify that before. And when you are able to do all of that before they get to that sale, then the price doesn't, the price becomes irrelevant because they've seen that value. They are like, yes, yes, yes, yes. He was like, You understand me so well, and my problem, and I just, I need that.
I need your expertise on this. And so I'd really dig into that new audience, spend time building that up, spend time sharing content, spend time, really like testing out different messaging points and asking a lot of questions to get that feedback so that when you are going into. Launch or sale or whatever you're coming in with this confidence, because you feel, because you feel like, you know, your audience so well and they feel so seen, heard and validated by you and your content as well.
So that they're like, yep, here's my money. Take it because this is so worth what you, what you've already explained, if that makes any sense. Yeah, no, it does. It's like, um, I was just, I just taught a workshop yesterday. That was about like content that converts. And it was really like, I was like, The best thing you can do is I get it in their own words and like, know that you, you know, whatever they're talking about, like reflect it back to them, obviously in a way that aligns with like, whatever it is that you do.
You know, if it's something that's outside of your wheelhouse house, like you don't have to talk about it. But, um, so that they can actually see like, oh, damn, like they know what I am experiencing. And they also know how to make me not experience it any more, like what I, you know, how to get to the other side of it.
Um, and I feel like that is really, that is really powerful. And you kind of can only do it by that listening, like whether, yeah. Whether it's like through the actual people that you're working with and really listening or listening to what other people are saying or doing that, like you said, that research, like the voice of the customer research.
Yeah. And it can feel a little bit like weird at first to be asking all those questions. I know for me at first I was like, oh, I like forced the customer research. I don't know if I could do that. But now I'm like, oh no, like I love, I did that in January for a new offer. And I was like, oh, this is so fascinating because I wasn't having to make any assumptions.
It was like, I was literally hearing exactly what they were telling me. And it was like, Okay. Now I can make better choices of what I'm going to do in my business to help address this and craft an offer and messaging around that. So, yeah. Yeah. And people want to share this information, like if you're like, Hey, I'd love your.
People are happy to share their thoughts. They're like, oh yeah. And, and just coming at it from, yeah, very objective. And it's really hard to do. Of course, when it's, especially when it's pricing, because so much of our, like, we have so many beliefs and thoughts and things tied up around money and pricing.
And so it's really hard to have that objective, like comfort. But if you're able to even just bought out, being like. This is what I'm offering. This is the problem that I'll be solving with this. D what do you think of this price point? And really just like, if you're wanting to do that level of research, you can totally do that.
And people will be upfront with you and tell you because. They are also thinking about it when you can explain to them what the problem is, the solution and why that it matters, why it matters to them. You're helping them to see like, oh, okay. Is how valuable is it to me to get that solution? Like, is it is a value, what's the value of that?
Because then they're, you don't have to paint that picture. They're already thinking in their heads of like, if I solve this problem, then this is what things could look like after the problem is solved and they're coming, they're telling me. What they feel about that pricing from that perspective. And that is really, really what pricing kind of does for people is like when you hear the messaging and everything, and then you finally look at the price in your brain, you're starting to think about like, is it worth, this is the solution worth, whatever this price point is.
And if you've done your job and really understanding who they are and what they want and what they need from you and communicating that effectively. The answer 99.9% of the time is a resounding. Yes. And those are your people. Those are your people who are like, oh my gosh, that's worth way more. I'm happy to pay this, whatever that price point is.
And the people who say no, and it's not for them and they're not your people. And that's totally okay too. So yeah. Yeah. And I know I definitely want to leave time for you to talk about how people can work with you and experience you and get your help and all of that. But because I know this comes up so often and before we hit record, like we were chatting about it a little bit, but, um, is around this idea of like, Price accessibility.
And like, I just want everyone to have this. And, and I mean, I know, you know, five minutes is like, not enough time to like talk all about it, but, but like, you know, as, as we start to think about this, like I know, I know that that is a big, um, you know, at least, at least for the people, like I know you and I serve and, and like, you know, we have similar values work with similar types of people, like, uh, We want to help people.
We want to do good with our businesses in the world. Um, but there's a lot of mindset stuff that comes up around like, well, I shouldn't have this offer at this price point because. Then some people will be able, you know, won't be able to have it like Twitch, which I always say, like you could, if you charged a dollar for something, like, there's still people out there who cannot afford a dollar, but you're probably, they're probably not your target market.
Like I'm just guessing that's probably for most businesses. It's not. Um, so what is like, what is your take or your thoughts on. Uh, not in regards to like an offer suite or pricing or, or things along those lines. Yeah, that's a really, um, that's a really great question. So I'll try to be brief. Um, cause this is something that I'm really passionate about is making sure that things are okay.
Are not only accessible, but that I'm able to serve people through my business. And so for me, one of the things I had to understand was that regardless, like you said, at any price point that I put it at, there's going to be people who are left out. Like there, it's just, that's just the way it's going to be.
Um, and I think so often we think that other people are judging us. So that's really one of the reasons why we feel that we need to make it like at an accessible price point so that any, and everyone can join. Is because we feel other people are kind of looking at us and being like, oh, They're not, they're not like building a business that is accessible.
And so I had to take a step back and say like, well, did I do that when I was first starting out and had $0 in my business and saw someone who was charging $10,000 for their offer? No, I was like, that is so cool. Like, I am not there and that's not the offer for me, but it's so cool that this person is doing that for me.
It was like a sign of possibility. Like that's possible to be able. So sometimes us charging and standing firm and like, Our value is what we bring to the table, the value of the problem that we're solving, like when we know that and we price confidently in that sometimes that's, it actually is an empowerment thing for other people who are looking in and can say like, oh, I didn't know that, that I could do that.
Like, I didn't know that I could charge that kind of money for my one-on-one services when I first started. And I saw other women doing that and I was like, wait, is that for real? Like, okay. Like now that I seen that, I know that it's possible. So that's one way to look. And also as women, the more we make, the more we give back, it's just like research has proven this, that the more we build up our communities and the more we're able to serve.
And the more you're able to get people who are paying you at the rates that you feel confident and comfortable. Good about charging, whatever those rates are, you are going to find ways and you're going to be in such a good place in terms of like delivering that service in a way that feels good, that you'll have the capacity and the space to help people without charging them.
You'll have the capacity and the space to give back in ways. Like I've been able to do that in my business because the more I charged, the more capacity and space I had to be like, yeah, I'll take on this pro bono project because I can, because I have the capacity to do that because of it. Because I am charging what I know my services are worth.
I'm able to then give freely to other people who I know wouldn't be able to afford them. And there is something so beautiful about that in generosity is a core value in my business. And so we're able to do those things when we are confident, like when we come from a place of scarcity, Don't feel abundance and we're charged.
We're like, oh my gosh, like this price point doesn't feel good, but I want it to be accessible. And we're feel like that anxiety inside. We have no, we are not in that capacity to serve people well. And when we can come from a place of like, I feel really good about what I'm making, I feel really good about when my clients are paying me.
You have so much more abundance to be able to be like, heck yeah, I'll do some like free. I'll just like get on calls with people and do some strategy sessions because I can. Yeah. And also we're able to create that accessibility in different ways, whether that's sliding scale, whether that's creating scholarships and things like that.
So I would really encourage people not to look at it from the pricing aspect, but really what are other ways that I can be accessible in my business while still honoring. What needs to be my price points for me to be profitable and help my family and support myself and all of those and be able to, and when we are able to charge where we can hire people, which is also another, our way of making, you know, things more, cause we're now creating jobs and opportunities for other people that want to be.
To serve in that way, in that, in that capacity, in your business as well. So I think that there's more than one way to look at accessibility. So maybe there's more than one way to look at accessibility and it's not always price point. And there are things you can do within your business to, to create that type of accessible.
Culture and, and, and business without undercutting yourself in terms of your pricing as well. Because sometimes I think we feel we have to do it at the expense of ourselves, and that's not true accessibility, and that's not true service either when we are doing things for other people at a cost to us, that's not, that's not what that looks like.
It needs to be good for us and good for the world as well. And so when we can find that balance, that's when we create that, that type of environment that we're looking for in our bids, Yes. Oh my gosh. I love it so much. Uh, like perfection chef's kiss. Yes, because that is, um, my, that like what I was literally like right before we hopped on had my rebellious success coaching call.
We had this deep conversation about this and I'm like, you can't, you like depleting yourself, harming yourself. As a justification of not potentially harming other people is not the answer to the, to the waters, the harmful waters that we swim in. Like you're just tipping the scales the other way. Paying yourself a shitty wage does not help the fact that other people might be receiving it.
You know, like it's like, it's, it's uh, it's. They're not like they're like mutually exclusive, like, do we? Yeah, we need that. And you're not creating any energy. Create any, you're not creating the type of energy. Cause then what happens when you get burnt out and frustrated, and now you're resentful to the very people that you wanted to help in the first place it's like that doesn't create a good environment for anybody.
No, no, it's really, yeah. It's really, really not good. And like we can't, yeah, we can't put the burden onto our like nervous system and energy levels and like peace of mind, like, yeah, we can't depleting ourselves too. Fix the, those types of problems is not, is, will never be the answer. No. Yeah. I love it. Oh my gosh.
So, so good. So good. Well where, you know, how can people work with you where, I mean, all of the, all of your links and everything are going to be in the show notes. Of course. But yeah. Tell us, tell us more. Yes. Um, so I am actually creating a program that will help people get really clear on their messaging and connect with the right kinds of clients, essentially teaching you how to create craft a message that actually is compelling to your audience, and also helps you create, um, content and messaging and all the things that, um, that help drive decisions for your audience.
Just thrown out there just to be out there, but actually helps them make a dishes decision of whether yes, I want to work with you. No, I don't want to work with you. Um, and so we've talked about all of these things in that. Um, so you can check that out in the link in my bio on Instagram, which is where I usually hang out.
So come say hi on Instagram and yeah. Say hi, all the things. And, um, that is how we can. Yeah, I love it. And you also co run the hill round table summit, which is like hands down. Uh, this is both my opinion and like literally the opinion of everyone I know who attended. They're like, I've never been to a better online summit truly.
So that was, um, yeah, that was something my friend Aliyah Walker is actually that's her business. That's one of her businesses and she is actually, she does all of that. Um, and so for the last round that she did, she was like, what'd you cohost that's with me. And I had the great honor of doing that and it was.
Just a magical, magical experience. It was so good. We talked so much about like creating an accessible, diverse, like diverse, inclusive business and a lot of different arenas and yeah, that was so good. And I think, I think she is doing another round soon, so I'm really, really excited about. Yeah. Yeah. So good.
So, all right. Awesome. Well, thank you tonight. Everyone definitely check her out. She knows her stuff. I've seen, you know, behind the scenes of how great her offers are. So they're, they're amazing. Go check her out. Follow her. See, you know, learn more from her because she is a total, total expert in with messaging and with pricing your offers and making sure your brand is aligned with all of it.
So thank you again. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This is amazing.
