Ep. 098: Selling High Ticket Offers

Selling high ticket (2,000+) offers can come with its own set of challenges, and they often center around the mindset of feeling worthy of charging more, and comfort with quoting that price. Yes, there are important strategic elements to learn in regard to marketing those offers, but usually the first hurdle people have to face is how they feel about those offers.

In this episode, I'm joined by sales expert Amanda Abella to talk about all of the nuances that come with creating and selling high ticket offers. You also get a peek into a lot of our own mindset work we've had to do, and are still doing, to keep moving our businesses forward.

Bio:

Amanda Abella is an award-winning content creator, keynote speaker, and business coach who specializes in helping business owners activate their persuasion prowess so they can make more money. Her clients go from hating sales and marketing to achieving 90% close rates and closing multiple five-figure deals. Her work has been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, Business Insider, Univision and many more. Prior to teaching marketing and sales, Amanda spent a decade as a financial writer and wrote content for companies like Wells Fargo, Discover, Credit Karma, Santander and more. She's also partnered with companies like Capital One and Transunion in financial education campaigns. She's also the Amazon bestselling author of Make Money Your Honey and has created a community of over 60,000 people across social media channels make more money and live a more affluent life.

Links:

www.amandaabella.com

Instagram: @amandaabella

Twitter: @amandaabella

Additional Links:

Your Next Big Thing Workshop: https://erikatebbens.podia.com/ynbt_jan

• Want to read a transcript of this episode? Click here!

  On today's episode of sell sister. I am joined by guest Amanda abayah of make money. Your honey. And before I tell you about Amanda, who she is and what she does, I just want to say that, you know, this podcast episode, I at first anticipated. It would be very much a sort of how to on creating and selling high ticket offers and what ended up happening.

  We do get to that. It's, it's actually way later in the podcast. Um, we get to it, but because Amanda is also a sales and selling. Expert and a lot of what she does overlaps with what I do, even though we, you know, we don't do it in the exact same way. Um, but we there's a lot of things that, that do overlap.

  So we ended up having this really great conversation, at least, uh, like it felt. Interesting to me. Um, but I, I also nerd out on sales and marketing stuff all the time, obviously. Um, but we, we ended up talking a lot more about the nuance of like selling and pricing and raising your prices and feeling worthy around raising your prices.

  And I feel like this is actually. Good to hear like really, really important to hear, because if I just had her come on and just give you five quick steps to, uh, creating and selling a high ticket offer. That would be great. However, there is so much more involved. In selling that high ticket offer and feeling comfortable, especially if you have been selling something that is more low priced, it can feel, uh, very.

  I like icky, right? It can, it can feel very, um, challenged. It can be challenging. It can bring up all of these other really difficult emotions that then cause us to not even feel like we want to promote it because we're like, I can't sell that thing. Nobody's gonna buy that thing. I don't know anyone who's going to pay me that kind of money.

  I don't feel good about, you know, receiving that kind of money. And so we actually ended up getting into this whole conversation around, um, pricing and, uh, you know, feeling comfortable, raising your rates, feeling worthy of making more, um, how it also feels really icky when we have sold something for too low of a price and how as we start to deliver on that thing, it can bring up a new set of.

  Really uncomfortable feelings like, like resentment and, and things of that nature, which, you know, isn't a say, and we were very, um, specific in the episode that it's not resentment toward our clients. It's resentment towards ourselves. And so I really feel like so much of creating offers and pricing offers and then turning around and marking those offers.

  It's it's a lot of doing the internal work first and not just a checklist that we can follow. And I know I've talked about this before in past episodes on pricing. I know last week I talked about selling low ticket versus high ticket offers. Touch a little bit on that in there. But Amanda really does have such, um, this extensive experience of learning the business of sales and selling, and then teaching it to the people that she works with.

  And I just, I think that there's so much more nuance to it. And so that is actually, we, we kind of went down various rabbit holes, um, around the nuance of. Just selling in general and putting yourself in your offers out there to sell. And the, the real, real obstacles that we have to overcome and doing that.

  And I was very appreciative. She was super, um, open, honest, and transparent in a lot of what that has looked like for her, a lot of her own, um, limiting beliefs and, uh, and things of that nature. So now that I have said all of that, Who is this Amanda person? Well, Amanda Avaya is an award-winning content creator, keynote speaker and business coach who specializes in helping business owners activate their persuasion prowess so they can make more money.

  Her clients go from hating sales and marketing to achieving 90% close rates and closing multiple five figure deals. Her work has been featured in Forbes, Huffington, post business, insider Univision, and many more. Prior to teaching marketing and sales. Amanda spent a decade as a financial writer and wrote content for companies like Wells Fargo, discover credit, karma, Santander, and more.

  She's also partnered with companies like capital one and TransUnion in financial education campaigns. She's also the Amazon best selling author of make money or honey, and has created a community of over 60,000 people across social media channels. So they can make more money and live a more affluent life.

  Her Facebook group that she is currently running is called high ticket sales for women coaches and course creators. She can also be found@amandaabayah.com on Instagram and both on Instagram and Twitter at Amanda abayah. So I really hope that you get a lot out of this episode. I know, even for me, it was really cathartic to talk about some of my own ish, um, that I have had to overcome in business.

  And if her message resonates with you and you want to learn more, all of those links will also be in the show notes.

  Make sure we're recording. All right. Hi, Amanda. Welcome to the, sell it sister podcast. I am so happy to be speaking with you today.

  Hi, I am thrilled to be talking to sales with another woman, so I'm very excited about where this is going to go.

  Yeah. Before I have you talk a little bit more about how you got to do what you are doing.

  Um, I just want to say, like, I know you from Rachel Rogers, uh, membership from the club and you reached out to me and you're like, Hey, um, you know, a fellow selling, like, let's, let's have a conversation about high ticket offers. And I was like, yes, absolutely. Because it's something I just, I have a lot of, I have a lot of my own thoughts and opinions and everything.

  And I know that this is, this is your jam. So I'm, I'm just really excited for this conversation.

  Yeah. And I reached out because when I see other smilies who are like killing it in the sales game, particularly when they're women. Cause we were talking before we started recording, like we we've got so many hands around high ticket sales, like when I see another one doing it, I'm like, Oh, Hey, hi, hi.

  We need to be friends. Let's talk.

  Totally, totally. And I think it's just like not to go down the tangent, but like I. I love knowing other people who do similar things. I know for a lot of people, it's the like, Oh, but you know, competition or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I don't really like feed into that. I feel like there's a, there's enough room on, on planet internet for everyone.

  And I actually think it's really cool to know other people in similar fields, because like we can always network on trends or ideas or thoughts or whatever. And also like, we are not. Each individual is not for every person. So it's great to have other people to connect others with. So,

  yeah. Right. Plus, you know, there's JV opportunities, which is the sales thing.

  Like sales can come from collaborations. It doesn't have to come with a hundred percent through you and everything you're doing and your stuff. So I'm 100% with you. I tell my clients all the time. I'm like competition is not really a thing guys.

  Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, yeah. So I know, you know, I, I.

  There's the intro. People know a little bit about you, but like, what is your backstory? I feel like we all have a really interesting path in the world of entrepreneurs.

  Yeah. And I've definitely got one with lots of pivots. So I've actually been in sales since I was 20. I just didn't know. So, um, I've done fundraising.

  I've done tours at my college. I was a recruiter at my last job, so I was always like somehow involved in sales or in a sales job. It's just nobody ever connected the dots for me. So I wasn't really aware that that's what I was doing. And I never got like formal sales training. They basically just like threw me in.

  Yep into the job. And I hear now that I work with more teams and things like that, I actually hear that's really common. Like people are working in sales teams, but they haven't been properly trained or they're doing sales and they have no idea that what they're doing is related to sales. So now that I have my own team, I'm like every body down from the assistant to the intern, I don't care.

  Like I'm connecting the dots for everybody. So you understand how, what you do leads to money in the bank because no one ever did that

  for me. Yup. Yup. That's that's common. I feel like it's the same. I didn't actually, um, same for me because I have been selling like pretty much any job other than like, when I was teaching high school has been based in sales somehow.

  And I actually didn't know it was like a strength that I had. I, I truly, I didn't realize until. Only, I would say maybe like five years ago. Cause I never really correlated it to like, like you were saying, like formal sales training or anything like that, like yes, I had, you know, some like retail training and, and whatnot, but it, part of it just felt, um, Intrinsic in a way and them, so that's yeah.

  It's, it's nice to hear that. I'm not, I'm not the only weirdo in that

  way. No, it happens all the time. Like people are in sales positions or something having to do with sales and they have no idea. And one of my business bestie works with a lot of corporate companies training their sales team and she's like, Oh yeah, this is like a massive problem.

  Like even the sales team doesn't know they're doing sales because the training is lacking or the understanding, or the context is lacking lately from the management team. So it's actually really common now that I'm, and now that I'm aware, I'm making sure not to do that mistake in my own company. So even now, as we're speaking, like my right hand woman is prospecting, like while we speak and I'm like, this is prospecting, this is how you do the messaging.

  And I'm teaching her that part of it now. And eventually I'll move her into other things. Right. But I'm making sure everybody knows. So. From there. I mean, the, the original, the story is basically like I graduated in 2010. Couldn't find a job, started a blog. Uh, cause I realized no one taught me anything about money or adulthood or any of those things.

  And then the short version is that blog ended up turning into my first business, which was a freelance writing business. I was a content marketer and eventually I niched down to content marketing for financial companies. So whatever your bank is, I probably, at some point either wrote an article or was somehow involved in the marketing aspect of things.

  And I don't do that anymore, but I still will do certain campaigns for financial education because it's something I'm really passionate about. And it's something that is very much lacking in society, which causes a lot of problems. So that was my first business. And in that first business, I realized, Oh my God, you got to learn how to sell.

  Like you gotta learn how to pitch. Right. So it wasn't like foam sales when you're freelance writing, it's more like email pitches, but you're still sales, right? Yeah. A hundred percent. And you still got to close deals. And I learned some very important lessons that now as a sales trainer, I'm telling my clients all the time.

  So in freelancing, it sounded like always be pitching in sales training. It sounds like always be closing or always be prospecting. Right. But I basically learned how to do all that stuff with my first business. Um, and I always wanted to be a coach or a trainer because I knew freelancing wasn't the forever thing.

  Right. It was like, this is great. I'll probably write until the day I die. But at some point the wheels of this thing are going to fall off and I'm aware of that. Right. So I always wanted to do coaching and training and really helping people transform their lives. So I went through this process of like, trying to figure out what life coaching was not an easy sell.

  Right. Um, and I was, I was very confused and I was very split because I'm like, I'm a recruiter at my day job. So I could do career coaching. I'm writing financial articles on the side of that for financial companies. Um, so I could teach that. Right. But everybody's asking me about entrepreneurship and how the hell I built this business to begin with.

  So I could teach on that. And I was all kinds of confused and because I was all kinds of confused, it was causing lots of issues with sales. Mm. Yeah. So I was once actually rejected 60 times in one month. Like no one would buy my coaching. Oh

  my gosh. Oh, that's brutal. That is

  brutal. Right. So I actually quit coaching for a while.

  Right. And then I just really doubled, tripled down on the freelancing because that, that was coming in. Like I was closing those left and right, cool. Whatever, I guess somehow in my mind I was like, Oh, I guess you're like destined to be a freelancer cause this coaching thing's not going to work for you.

  And then I started running into another issue and that was our starting to make good money as a freelancer. But, um, a, my hands were hurting, like literally from all the content I was doing it wasn't scalable. And I wasn't going to be allowed to like live the life I wanted to live. Like, I remember being home, visiting my parents for the holidays and then getting an email on December 26th at 9:00 AM, from an editor that they wanted a bunch of edits.

  And I basically went, Oh, hell no, this is not why I got into this. Like I had that moment. Right. So I was like, you need to figure out how to intellect, like get your intellectual property into other people's brains. Right. Because at that point I'd been in entrepreneurship like seven years. Yeah. I think six or seven years, that's an, you need systems or you need a processor, you need something.

  So I hired someone to help me with that. And, um, I went through a training with them and we get to the sales portion and I was like, Oh God, like. Here we go, because in my mind, I'm still thinking about when I got rejected 60 times in one month. So I go through the sales trading and they stop and they're like, you're really good.

  And I was like, huh, what do you mean? I'm really good. Cause remember, no one's connected the dots for me by this point. Right? Like my freelance business is doing really well and I'm selling, but I don't realize I'm selling. Right. Um, and then I was rejected 60 times of one month. At one point, they were like, yeah, you're really great.

  Just make this one little tweak here. And I was like, um, okay. Um, and I launched persuade to profit, which is my sales training program at the time. It was a smaller container than it is now. And it was mostly just focused more on marketing. There was sales stuff, but it was really the marketing piece people were asking me for, cause I was doing marketing for banks, you know?

  Um, and I launched it and I had just moved and I had rent to pay and I was like, well, I'm just going in. Right. And I made $10,000 in cash in two weeks. Nice. People were like, Oh yeah, no, totally. Here you go. Here's the credit card. Here you go. Here's the credit card like painful. Yeah. And at that moment I was like, bitch, you are good at sales.

  Like

  finally the dots connected.

  Completely connected. So it would be another year while I'm doing like the, the building, the coaching and marketing training company that I have now and still doing the content marketing company at the same time, it would be a year before I completely let go of the former business because, um, I realized I was starting to make more money selling my programs and teaching people how to market and sell.

  Then I was making freelancing and it was giving me more of my like time, freedom back. So that was 2018. And then in 2020, which is when you and I met, um, the world, the shit hit the fan in 2020. And when shit hits the fan, everyone freaks out about sales. So in 2020, people were like knocking down my door, like.

  Oh, my God, I need help. Oh my God. I need help. Oh my God. I'm really struggling. How do you do sales in a time of uncertainty? How do you do, you know? And I realized two things. Number one, there's a lot of people out here buying business training programs and no one's teaching them how to actually sell.

  That's the first thing I noticed

  word, let me co-sign that real quick.

  Thousands of dollars in debt and never made a return because no one taught them sales from a to Z, right? Like it's not, the leads are not always going to be on fire. Like you need to know how to like, be with people. Like you need to know how to deal with people and how this process works.

  Right. Um, so that was number one. And number two, the ones who were struggling the most were women because the women, the men have the resources to go to. I ended up learning from men how to really do this. Every time I went to a program, run by a woman, not, not to shade it, but it was that whole idea of like, they weren't really going in.

  On the sales stuff, like there, it just was not there. So in order for me to learn everything from like prospecting to closing, to handling objections, to sale system, like I had to learn from the guys and in 2020, I was like, okay, so all these women are buying programs and no one's teaching them how to sell.

  Right. And number two, there aren't really any resources available to them to really help them understand this is before I met you to really help them understand, um, what, what is this process? What is going on for them psychologically? What is going on for the other person psychologically, like how to actually show up in a sales conversation, how the marketing helps the sales, but marketing is not sales.

  They're two different things, you know? So in 2020 I was like, okay, I gotta do something about this. And I really started doubling tripling, quadrupling down on the messaging of, I help women with sales systems and high ticket sales training. Right, right. We're not talking Facebook ads until you've got money coming in for Facebook ads.

  Right? So we're going to get you doing high ticket sales from the gate. That's what we're doing. And I expanded the sales portion of persuade to profit. And then by the end of 2020, we were doubling our revenue. We started a Facebook group called high ticket sales for women coaches. And course creators had over a thousand people within a quarter, mostly organically.

  Right. And people are just like, give me more, give me more, give me more. So I was like, Oh, I hit something in the marketplace. I found something.

  Yeah. And I feel like what's really interesting, like two things that I thought when you were talking is one how you were like, I'd been doing all this other selling and even selling in your freelance, but then when you switch to coaching, it became, it felt harder.

  Cause I experienced that too. Like I was like, I'd run other businesses. Like I could sell anything. But then when I made the pivot to like, I'm selling myself and it's like an intangible deliverable, it was like, what the F I don't, this is like a different world. And it's, it's like, the fundamentals are there.

  But I feel like the mindset shift that was like a hurdle personally for me, that I had to, I had to really figure out like a different way of marketing and a different way of selling it. Like it, it was, it was like just a lot of new stuff to learn. Cause it is a bit different than being like. Oh, there's this handbag or there's this, you know, this physical thing, even if it's a document, like a blog post or whatever, like that's still a physical thing versus I'm doing

  something for you and in my eye.

  And right now I help a lot of business owners move away from the done for you stuff. Cause they're tired. They can't scale it. I know I was there. Right. So it's a different, it's a different kind of, um, I mean, I, I want to be transparent. I said this to my mastermind group on Monday, I make five times more money now than I ever did for dancing.

  And it's going to keep growing because I can scale the thing. Right. But there is that shift there that they go through where it's like, wait a minute is like my knowledge enough. And I'm like, your knowledge is inherently expensive.

  Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I think what's interesting too. The other thing that I thought of was you said, you know, during, um, 2020, how people were like.

  Oh, my gosh, like I need, I need selling and you, but you'd already been doing it for years. I just, I like want to emphasize like how it was. It's the, like the sticking with it, like sticking, like giving your business enough time and your message enough time and the consistency of that message. Like, I know you said like you ramped it up, you went all in you like double down, you did all of that to make it even more.

  But that, like, it wasn't overnight that people were flocking to being like, I need Amanda sales coaching. It was like you had been being consistent and putting that bug in people's ears. And then like, we never know what that catalyst will be for somebody to finally be like, I need this person now. So it's like, just don't don't quit on yourself too early.

  Like, just because, because like, what if you, what if you would have stopped earlier and then. Now you're, you know, like you wouldn't be making five times as much, you know what I mean? So I just, I like wanted to call that out because I think it's so important for people to have real examples of people where it was like, cause I feel like in the online space, everything looks so shiny and it was like this, you know, six figure launch.

  You know, in like 12 months they went from making like, you know, $12 an hour to 20,000 a month. Right. And it's like, no, you had to keep like the message and the time and the, like you had to put in the work. And then finally the tipping point. And it was like, now I need Amanda and I'm ready to spend and I need what she's.

  Yeah. And it, I actually didn't even realize I had done this, but I basically completely shifted business models and lanes within like a three-year period. And I just didn't realize that's what I had done because I was so in it. And to your point about the sticking with it, I find that that's one of the things people really struggle with with sales.

  So when I'm doing sales training with my clients, and by the way, part of the reason why the messaging stuck was because my clients started getting ridiculous results. Like we had clients getting 90% close rates once they figured out some of this stuff, which is like, I don't even think I, I don't even have a 90% close rate, like that's crazy.

  Right, right. Um, and so the, the thing that I tell them, right. And I'm leading a group through persuade to profit now, and I start them off with the call and I'm like, look, there's a few areas in this program where you're going to feel resistance. Right. Um, your pricing a hundred percent, the tech stuff for the systems.

  Cause I don't want you guys being in prison. I want things working for you. Right. Um, the marketing and putting yourself out there and being visible and letting people know you exist and sales, like I shit, you not. Once we get to module six, which is when we start doing like sales, that's when it gets real for people.

  And that's when they're most likely to sell sabotage. Right. Because we've been told a bunch of bullshit about what sales actually is. And everybody's had a horrible sales experience at some point in their lives and they don't understand what's going on there once they understand they're fine. But one of the things I tell him, I was like, you are going to feel resistance.

  Right. It's normal. Right? You are also probably going to suck at first, right?

  Yes,

  yes. Totally normal. It's fine. Right. The thing is, it's like working out, like I just started working out with a trainer and you know, we're 10 minutes in and my body's like, why did you do this to me? Like, why are we doing? But you stick through it and you move past the resistance and then you start seeing the results.

  And I feel like what happens for most people? And I understand because it's a lot of rejection you have to go through. Right. They don't stick with it long enough to really learn sales. So they just either rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. And they're like, there's something wrong with me. And I'm like, no, we all go through this.

  Yeah,

  absolutely. And I think even now there's the thing too of like, and I don't know if this happens, you know, for you or whatever, but. When there's that person in, you're like, you're so excited to work with them and you just like, you want to hear that? Yes. And it's like, I will still get butterflies.

  Like, am I still know? You know, I know all of the, you know, like rationally I can be like, this is, you know, like whatever, like I, the logical part of my brain knows and like understands and is not freaking out, but that like acts like excited, deep internal part of me is like, Oh my gosh, I hope, I really hope they say yes, I really hope they say, you know, it's like, I feel like there is some of that element of like, um, the like butterflies that doesn't, it's almost like the, you know, before you walk out on stage for new who's sound like theater or public speaking, it's like, it's adrenaline.

  Yeah. Like once you're out there, you're like, Yeah, I'm in, I'm in the flow. I got this, like, whatever, but that like moment right before you're like, Ooh, I'm like a little scared, excited. So, and I just feel like that means that you care and it just comes with the territory. And you're not, it's not just in your view money then and you're human.

  Yeah. You're human. Um, and I tell people all the time, like if you're not somehow emotionally invested in this, like that's when I would be concerned. Cause there's two things for that. Number one, I'm sure you've heard this, but there's a saying that says like the person who has the most conviction is going to win the sale.

  Right. You need to have conviction in order to have people buy from you. Right. You either have to be convicted as to why your product or service helps this person, or they're going to be more convicted to their excuses as to why they can't do it, but somebody has got more conviction. Right? So the thing is, that's the one thing I cannot teach you already have.

  Right?

  So when I see people getting emotional like that, I'm like, no, if that's good, that means you've got conviction. Now it's just a matter of like this skillset and teaching you how to like focus that and hone that in, you know, but I can work with that.

  Am I think part of that, um, cause I, I, a hundred percent know, I can look back now and go, Oh, I know, I know why I lost that sale.

  And it w it was exactly that it was, I had put a perception in my mind of, Oh, I don't know if I can actually like help this person. Not even, not even like, I don't know if I can help this person, but like, it would be someone who had like, I don't even know, like, you know, 10 times more, let's say like Instagram followers than me.

  Right. So in my, in my, like very human. Mine. It's like, Oh, there, they must be this level above me. Even though I have skills that could help them. Like this was my hang up for the longest time, it was like, well, why would they want me? Like, it almost felt like being in high school again, like they're a cool kid.

  I'm a nerd. I can't possibly be the one. Like, they're not, they're not going to want me when, even though they reached out, even though they, they booked the discovery call. And while we had a great conversation, I am 99% sure that they didn't close to date. Like they didn't become an actual paying client of mine because I was too wishy-washy I didn't have the conviction because I had told myself a story about who they were and how I, you know, whatever.

  And so I didn't. I wasn't clear enough in really showcasing, like how I could help and why I was actually like the perfect person to be able to help them. And in some cases I'm sure, you know, maybe it was just like, they're like, I don't know. I just don't vibe with her and I'm gonna go with someone else because that happens too.

  And I totally respect that. And, you know, and that's, I've, I've experienced that in shopping around for things as well. Same as, you know, as a consumer, um, But it's that thing where I'm like, I wish I could rewind the clock with the confidence I have now and redo that sales call. And I would bet anything that my own confidence and conviction around the results I get for people I would have better are I would have like, could have articulated that better.

  And they would have become a paying client. Well,

  Erica assail has never really lost. You could go back and close them. Those 60 people that rejected me, I'm closing them now that was years ago. And I didn't go

  away. It's the kind of thing where, so I still in my, like my approach to it is like, once I've connected with somebody, like we are a connection, like you could, you could say, no, you could say not now.

  There's no, there's no bad blood. Like I now know you as a human. I think you're rad. We're connected. Like I want to still stay engaged with you. But yeah, like I think, I think sometimes it's easy for people to assume that even. Even for people who look like they have it all together and they're comfortable selling and stuff.

  It's like, that's not the whole, that's not how it has always been 100% of the time. Always because any time we like step off that path and do something new, it feels, it brings up all the shit all over again. And it's like, you're back to you have more tools in your tool belt, but you're like, well, I know I could sell that and I could do it confidently.

  But now I've, you know, which I think this is like a good segue to talking about high ticket offers where you're like, well, I know I could sell that $500 thing, but now you want me to sell a $2,500 thing. Like I got tools in my tool belt, but this also feels scary as hell. And I don't know, like now my, now my confidence is a little bit waning.

  Cause I don't actually know if I could. Show up to a sales call and quote someone 2,500, 5,000, $10,000.

  Yeah. Um, I think what did it for me was me observing how the men did it. I remember being in a, in a bar at a conference I used to go to every year and like my accountant, my accountants dude, he's sitting next to me.

  And then his dude friend and that dude friend ended up selling his website for seven figures. Later on down the road, right? Like down the road. Right. And then it was two female friends of mine that I knew from the conference. And I'm just here observing. Cause I'm like kind of obsessed with how like men are approach sales versus how women approach sales.

  I think it's like the most fascinating thing ever. Right? Cause it's like speaking two different languages. So I'm just here, like observing. I was still mostly a freelancer at this point and that's why I was at this conference. And my female friend is talking about, well, you know, I knew I could go into editing, but like, I just feel so weird about selling myself.

  I just feel so weird about asking for this amount of money and my accountant and my do friend over here were like, What's the problem. You're just telling somebody that you can fix their problem. And that you're good at it. Like it was so nonchalant. Right. And I was like, Oh my God, I need to be more like you.

  Right. Or there was another guy at that conference. Again, this is when I was freelancing. And this is one of my first lessons in that, that now I'm seeing like, Oh, I'm seeing it all come back around. Right. And he's like, yeah. I just keep asking for more money with every new person I talked to until I hear no.

  And I was like, you do what he goes. Yeah. I just like test myself with like every new I'm just going to keep asking for more money until I hear no. And then I'll probably try again. And I was, and there's no feelings about it. There's no. Like stories about it. There's no nothing. It's, it's just very nonchalant.

  Or last year I interviewed one of my sales trainers, Michael Burt for my podcast. Right. Cause, um, I did that for my audience because I'm like, yeah, the world's on fire. So let's go talk to a guy who's running like a multimillion dollar company and like trains sales teams. Right. Let's do it. Right. And also introducing people to some of my mentors.

  And he said, this story that I was like, Oh my God, if women just understood this, if women just understood what this guy did right. Where he was a basketball coach for like 12 years. And then he started getting asked to train sales teams cause you know, teams and teams, right. Like people with sports backgrounds actually do really well in sales.

  Um, typically. And so he's like, okay, like he didn't go out looking for him. It was some big insurance company in Tennessee and they came to him because he'd won a championship for girls high school basketball team. And they came to him. Right. And they're like, well, how much would you charge for like this?

  And he's like, I just said $160,000. Cause I was too stupid to ask for more. And he got it.

  That makes me want to like, just slip into the abyss. Like I can't, because I feel like there are, uh, I mean, myself included. I feel like there are so few women I know who would be like, like we would be, you know, up for nights, sweating, conferencing, all of our friends, freaking totally freaking out and then would still be like, I don't know.

  Do you think that 15,000, do you think that's too much? Should I. Should I do 10,000. And so, you know, I just, I feel like it's so, and I mean, there's obviously so many long standing, you know, cultural and you know, like reasons for this, like there's so much going on, but it's, it's just, um, it is, it is Buckwild.

  I know there's Denise Duffield Thomas has this old, old video recording. She's like speaking at something and she's talking about the difference between men selling and women selling. And it's like a doodle be like, Oh, I have, you know, I don't know, like this AirPod case, whatever, like it's yeah. It's like super amazing and blah, blah, blah.

  And, um, it's the great, like you'll never find another, you know, uh, air pod case protector, and it's this much. And how many do you want? And she's like, you know, and then like, women will be like, Oh, this thing, it's my whole life's work. Like I'm an expert in my field and everything. And like, I don't know, are you sure you want it?

  Could I just, do I

  need another certification? Yes. Should

  I just make this content and of like, I know it's and it's just, Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it's, it's so like, there's just so much to unpack there, but it, that really is like, it is such a real thing, which is why I constantly am reminding myself and saying like, Carry yourself with confidence of a mediocre white man.

  Cause they just, they could read a pamphlet and be like, I'm an expert. Now you should pay me. I'm now a consultant in this thing and you should pay me top dollar.

  For my knowledge, I was like, your first deal was $160,000. He's like, yeah. And I, and I, and he probably did undercharge, total transparency.

  You're like training a whole corporate sales team. Like you probably undercharged. Right. So, but still like, I I'm like. I was like, I would freak out over like $5 when I was first starting, like freelancing over here, like ask him for 160 grand with the first, like people that come to him because quote unquote, he was too stupid to not ask for more because he didn't know.

  He could ask

  for more. Yeah, my gosh, it makes me like, want to just sweat through my clothes. Like, yeah.

  Well you said that story on my podcast last year, I was literally like, coach, do you trying to, he does a lot more traditional stuff. So like I'm always trying to combine the old school style stuff with the new school steal stuff.

  Right. Because I'm like, you can't rely on Facebook ads forever people. Like I do it, but like, what happens if your account gets shut down? Like you need to know the skills. Okay. You need to know how to do it all the ways. Right. Um, and that's why you all are taking marketing programs and still not making money by the way, because it's all based on the assumption that the leads are going to be on fire.

  Which is not always the case. They have considerations that you need to know how to deal with exactly that comes from traditional sales training. Right. So he does way more traditional sales. It's like financial advisors and insurance companies, mortgage guys, all that stuff. Right. So I learned from him and I was literally like, coach, do you realize how difficult this would be like for a woman?

  Like the fact that you just said that like, like we don't, we don't operate this way for lots and lots of reasons, like you said, um, going back eons probably. Um, and, and that's why I decided in 2020. Okay. I really have to talk to women about this. Right. Because I would, I understand why a woman would feel uncomfortable with like a grant Cardone or a Michael or a grad.

  I love all of them by the way. Right? Like I've trained with Michael Burt and grant Cardone. Right. Love them. Totally love them. Right. There are some things that are amazing that I applied right away. The mindset stuff was really good. There are other things that I'm not going to do. Right. And that's totally cool.

  Right. And I understand why based on a lot of the stuff that we would have to unpack to really explain the psyche of women in this particular situation, I understand why you would feel uncomfortable. I totally get it right. Or like I was in a, in a, I'm not going to say the name, but I was in a training program for a sale system.

  And like, it was so bro sales, like it was so gross. Right. And it was effective and they were making money. But then I had people in my DMS being like, Hey Amanda, how are you making money with this system? Because I haven't been able to do anything yet. And then I come to find out, Oh, they used bro sales on you.

  And they never should have sold this thing to you in the first place. Cause you weren't ready for

  it. Yeah.

  Yeah, right. So like I get it, I completely a hundred percent understand. Right. Because you would have to go in there and just be kind of like, okay, this works for me. This doesn't work for me. Right.

  Or you would have to go into a guy like grant Cardone who will admit that he puts people off. Right. Like, he's not great at first impressions, you would have to stay in there long enough to get over all like the craziness and like really find out what he's trying to teach you, you know? And not everybody not, he's not everybody's cup of tea.

  I get it. Right. And he knows it too. And he shouldn't be same with Michael Burt. It's very hard driving. It's very, you know, um, like athletics, almost oriented that doesn't work for people. I get it. So I was like, all right, I'm going to be the translator because I actually don't mind these environments.

  I've learned a lot from them and I know what to, I know what's going to work for the women. And I know what's not gonna work for the women. Right. Because I am one. So I'm going to be like the translator here. Right. So that women will actually have a freaking resource to go to where they understand, um, this is a business and you're here to make money.

  Right. So like going for the close, it's not just about you building relationships while at the same time, not having to, cause I think we're the guys kind of falter. Is that sense of like they're not as empathetic,

  complete. Yes, I would. I would agree.

  And women are, and the thing is when you combine the two, like that's when you're good, that's when you turn sales into an art form, because if you're able to show up to a call empathetic, like you can actually deal with objections probably way better.

  Like if someone's like, Oh my God, this is so scary. I've never spent this kind of money. I totally get it. I've been there.

  Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I say. Or like, yes. It's, it's so nice to hear you say that because I think I've had a lot of conversations with people where they're like, get really hung up on like objections, objections.

  It's like, you know, yes. Are there, are there ways to approach and manage objections and everything? Of course. But also like, sometimes it's like, or a lot of times it's just having that empathy and get, and like allowing people to retain agency of their own decisions and like not, um, like railroading them into something that is, you know, even if they just need a night to sleep on it or, you know, whatever, like to talk to their bestie and be like, I feel really scared.

  I just need to get this off my chest. Okay. Now I'm good. Like I'm ready to do this. Uh, I feel like that is so intrinsic. I just had one this morning, a woman, I know joining my group program. She was like, I just, just have a quick moment. I just want to quick chat. And I was like, of course, even though it's like, it's an application process, but I was like, of course.

  Cause it's like for some of us, like we just, we just want that human to human. Like I see you. You see me? I understand you. You understand me? Okay. I am still a little bit nervous, but I feel better and I'm good to go, like, right.

  Yeah. And I think if women did, because women tend to do that more naturally than the men do, but when men tend to new more naturally, and this is, I think why they Excel at it a bit more, right.

  Is they could still be doing that stuff, but they're like, okay, cool. But I'm talking to a hundred other people, right. Which the women don't tend to do because I'm on calls every week. And I'm like, well, how many prospects did you talk to this week? And they're like two. Right. And I'm like, okay, we got to fix this.

  Right. Because part of the nervousness that you have to begin with is you're not talking to enough people because if you were talking to people, you would understand, there's always somebody else to talk to. So you wouldn't be as concerned with, which I think is what the guys do really, really well.

  They're constantly on offense. They're not playing defense. They're like how many points can I put on this board? Right, right. They're always aware of that. So even if someone is like, okay, well let me go talk about it. Right. They feel more comfortable letting somebody do that because they're already talking to a hundred other people.

  Cause they're like, if it ain't this person, who's going to be somebody else. Yeah. Right. And I tell my clients that all the time. So like a lot of the nervousness that women feel around sales is because you're not talking to enough people to begin with. Right. So I that's why I'm saying like, if, if someone and I'm trying to figure out how to do this, so if they could just combine, like what guys do really well in sales and what women do really well in sales and combine them together naturally, like you would have like a superhuman sales superstar.

  Yes. Right. I actually think that because women are more naturally empathetic and intuitive, right. They are more intuitive than the men are and that's kind of where they'll slip a little bit. Right. Um, and then they combine that with the sheer volume. That guys are doing and the mindset of like, this is a business we're here to close and make money.

  Right. I think women would like beat the dog shit out of guys in sales competitions, if they really understood that.

  Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I would agree a thousand percent with that, with that sentiment, because I do think, yeah. I mean, I just, I think in so many areas of entrepreneurship, we are so, um, intrinsically set up for success, but we just don't, uh, I don't know.

  We're, we're, we're like selling ourselves short in a lot of, in a lot of ways.

  I think we sell ourselves short and also the struggle that I had when I was really trying to connect these dots for myself is like, Every time. I went to programs for women by women, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with mindset.

  I do all the things. Okay. Literally I am wearing crystals as we speak. I do. Right. Um, but what I found was there was this, um, like people like to stay there in the mindset piece of things, but they're not actually taking the massive action that they need to take. Right. So instead of talking to like two people, why don't you talk to 12?

  Right. And it doesn't take a whole lot of extra effort to do that. Right. And what you'll find is when you actually start moving and taking the action, that builds confidence. Right. So if you're like. So if you're like, I'm reaching out to X people today and you actually do it, even if you didn't close a single one of them, you still did it.

  And then that's what starts building that internal confidence. So the reason I had to go to a lot of guys to really connect the dots for me and understand this and get the right, like all offensive mindset in mind. Um, and like the thinking bigger mindset, right? Like I started hiring employees because I was like, Oh my God, I can't just do this myself.

  Let me stop being a martyr, trying to do all the things, right. Yeah. Um, is because when I would go to it, it was a lot more, um, I'm trying to find the right word here. Maybe you can help me with the word. It was a lot more in a theorial like bigger picture, but not really tactical. Not really like what, well, okay, fine.

  My mindset. But like, how do I get the damn money? Like how do I get the money in the bank account? Like, what is the skill set here to get the money in the bank account? I'm tired of talking about what's going on in my brain. I want to know the skills, right. Yeah. Visualizing, how do I

  close? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  I had bills that need to get paid. Yeah. And, um, my like, yeah, the visualizing it is not, is not paying them. So yeah, that is, yeah. It's a really, it's a really good, um, it's a really good distinction. And I do, like, I have mixed feelings about my, my time in the world of, of direct sales, but I will say one thing that that was, um, nice about it is, and the data may have changed now.

  I don't know. Cause it's, it's been a while, like a lot of years since I've been in that industry, but at the time it was one, it was out of every 10 asks. You could anticipate one. Yes. And so I feel like when you have that data, you're like, Oh, it's all just a math game. It's it's just, you know, I, if I'm at nine nos, I'm that much closer to that.

  Yes. And it's when you already know what the outset like, Oh, there's going to be that much rejection involved. I feel like you can kind of just buffer yourself better for it. And just,

  I start off my sales training that way, right. The way that I do, because I'm like, don't expect to be a superstar like in a week.

  Like that's not how this works. Sales is not one of those things that you could go around it over it under it. You got to go through it. Like there's no other way to learn sales, except it's like driving a car. You're not going to learn by reading the manual. You learn by getting behind the wheel. It's the same thing with sales and mostly anything in life.

  Right. Um, so it's, it's really interesting. So for me, I was like, I got to teach the tactical stuff and not just the tactical stuff of like, Oh, here's how you build your email list and how you write an email to sell to them. I'm like, no, I need you to learn how to prospect. I need you to learn how to follow up.

  I need you to learn how to close. I need you to learn how to handle objections. I need you to learn how to like, show up as like an empathetic human, but have the skillset to be able to help someone make a decision that ultimately is good for them.

  Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

  I need you to know how to go get money whenever you need it without having to rely on Facebook ads or an email list or, or what have you.

  Okay.

  Yeah, completely. Um, I like, Oh my gosh. We're like, I could talk to you for like seven hours. Um, I wanna make sure I'm like, Oh, we could talk about sales for days, but I do want to make sure that we touch on, you know, moving. So moving into. Um, uh, high, like selling more high ticket offers because it's that real, it's the, it's the mindset of feeling comfortable selling something for a larger dollar amount than you've ever done before, but it's also the tactical of like, it's different messaging.

  It's different marketing, it's a different strategy. So I would love to hear around that because like, we know that we are like undercharging. We know, you know, or like, hopefully we know, you know, we're undercharging that our knowledge and our expertise is super, super, super valuable that we actually do when people invest in us.

  Like, because my audience are ethical people, they are going to show up, they are going to deliver. Um, they're going to probably even go above and beyond to make sure that it's a good client experience and people get what they paid for. But hot damn. If it doesn't feel terrifying to go from. I have this two 97 offer too.

  Oh yeah. I have a $5,000

  offer. Yeah. I mean, I think I have a couple of answers for this. So I think at some point people need to make a decision that they're tired of being broke because that's what did it for me. Right? Like I'm so tired of undercharging. I'm so tired of people taking advantage of me.

  I'm so tired of not being able to pay my bills. I'm so tired. Like I'm exhausted. I'm not fucking doing this anymore. And I think everybody gets to that stage at a different point. The other answer I would have to that is if the dollar amount, like I tell my clients this, like if the dollar amount or the target or whatever is freaking you out, rather than looking at it as, Oh my God, I have to close this $20,000 sale or 2000 or whatever.

  Oh my God, I have to close it. Right. Instead of thinking about the number itself, kind of shift your focus and make your goal being mastering sales, not the dollar amount that you're going to close, but mastering the skill set itself. It actually kind of helps you take all the emotion out of it. Because your focus is somewhere different.

  Right. Um, and the third thing I would say is just from like a cash flow business perspective, like, look, I just started selling like lower price point offerings in my business, but the only reason I could do it is because I have enough cash flow to run, paid advertising to them to make the numbers work.

  And that's what a lot of people are not telling you what the lower price point stuff. They either have massively engineered audiences, which will take you forever to build, or they're running, paid advertising to it. Like, like I love, I like Russell Brunson's ClickFunnels product, speaking of bro sales.

  Right. But I was at 10 X growth con actually they're one of my big one in Miami that grant Cardone did and Russell Brunson's on the stage and he's got two people up on the stage or three people. And they're like, yeah, I made a million dollars off of like a $9 product. And I would just like send people to a webinar and I'm there with my friend and he's doing some math.

  Right. And he just hears about this world, like through me. Right. But he's not like doing it himself. And he's like, something's not making sense with these numbers. And I'm like, yeah, the parts they're not telling you is how much money she spent on ads. Oh

  completely. Yes. Yeah. The casual omission of that is, Oh, got it.

  I could just rant for days. I could rant for days on it, but it's so it is, it really does such a disarray. Like this is why I am, I'm so big in a transparency and I'm so glad to like that you are transparent and you're like, I'm making five times more now. Like I think it's important, especially for women to have honest conversations about what business looks like, because at least for me, I know when I know what I'm up against, I can make a plan.

  I can prepare myself and I can. Do what needs to be done to get past that obstacle. But when I have no clue, like what is actually happening, it's I feel like that's where a lot of the throwing spaghetti at the wall, you're like, well, I just hope I can poke a hole in the saying. And, but when somebody actually says like, Oh no, this is the path I took, or this is how long it took or whatever the case it's like, Oh, okay.

  Now I can, like, I can better mentally prepare myself for that. And I feel like what I see happen constantly is there is this, um, Fear of people getting mad at a price, a fear of feeling greedy or appearing greedy or whatever the case, um, uh, fear of being like inaccessible to people. And so then it becomes, I'm going to sell these a bunch of lower cost things, and then you're like, okay, what's your monthly goal?

  I would love to get a $6,000 a month. Okay. If you have a $49 product, like we can, we can do the math and there's nothing. If you want to do like, I, one of my longest time clients has a killer killer business. She sells nothing that is over $200. All digital she's showing up, she's serving, she's fricking amazing, but it works on volume and that is the difference.

  And it just. Yeah. When you actually look at your goals versus what you're charging versus what it takes you to get one of those sales, and you can take that emotion out of it. So many times I've had clients and I've had this happen to me, where you go, fuck, I can't do it. I can't, the math doesn't matte up.

  I just, I do

  math. Let's do it. I'm like, there's no way you're gonna, you. Can't like, there's not enough hours in the day to make $6,000 in a month of, of a $49 product, unless you have engineered traffic. Right. That's the only way. So, and this is part of the reason why you started the group as well, because I would have so many conversations with women who are like in coaching programs and the programs were for people who were ready to scale, not for people who were just starting out.

  Right. And they'll tell them some bullshit, like, Oh, you just got to spend $20 a day on ads. I'm like, let me tell you as someone who runs the ads for my business, that is a little horseshit, right. A hundred percent. Right. Um, so they're doing that sales tactic, which is really annoying the hell out of me, which is one of the reasons I started talking about this stuff more, but they're just starting out and they're telling them to spend all this money on ads with what revenue you haven't figured out, like the business basics to even have money to a lot toward ad spend.

  Right. And it's really pissing me off, but there's a lot of people out here who are selling people who are just starting out and really need to learn the basics of like, here's how I create a great product. Here's how I market. Here's how I sell. Here's how I negotiate. Like that's what they should be learning.

  And instead they're teaching them Facebook ads when they don't have money to be spending on Facebook ads. So of course they're not getting results or they haven't really nailed down their messaging to make those things convert. Right. So it's happening all the time. So I'm like guys from a simple math perspective, right.

  If you want to sell lower price point products. No one's saying you can't do it later. Right. I'm just saying do it when it actually makes sense,

  right? Yeah, yeah. Do it, do it when you can, when you have the systems to support it and everything. Yeah. So I definitely, that was a big, I know, even for me, it was a big, um, A big mindset shift where I had to, I just had to start approaching it differently because I was like, yeah, this is just not serving me.

  Like the, how I, I am shooting myself in the foot with undercharging and over-delivering, and I'm, I'm running myself into the ground and I need to, I need to not do that, but you're right. It was, it was the lived experience of, Oh, I, I have, I have put myself in this predicament and actually it does not, it does not feel fun.

  And honestly, like from a lot of people I know who have tried to do more lower priced, accessible offers is on the backend. They're like, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a lot of not great for you now let's

  just call it. It's totally resentment.

  Yeah. I've said that. I've said that before my, um, I said before Asti cycle, it is, it is.

  I think, I think I said it in podcast episodes. I definitely know I've said at other places, but, um, that is my trigger, um, emotion. Like I know sometimes people will have like, you know, other resentment adjacent emotions that are like, kind of wake up call for me. It's resentment. That's my telltale sign. If ever I'm feeling resentful about something in my business that is like, I'm like, Oh, it's my inner compass being like.

  Lady, it's time to charge more like, and it's, and it's not a resentment against my clients. It's a resentment against you have sold your own self short, and now you are not honoring what you bring to the table and you have created an imbalanced energy in like in your business. That does not feel good.

  And this is your body's way of screaming at you to be like, Hey, listen to me, this is something has to change here. Yeah.

  There's a really great book. I recommend for people who struggle with undercharging full disclosure, I had to read this book like three times in order for it to really sink in because the four parts I forgot to mention is that even though I was like in sales jobs, like when you're a recruiter and it's a down economy and Florida was one of the three hardest hit States, you're not really making money.

  Right. Um, so I, I have a history of under earning. And it's something I have to constantly check myself on. Right. All the time. And also, um, boundaries. I got to check myself, they're like my boundaries get loose. I got to check myself. Right. And every once in a while I got to check it again and reimplement them and then everything's fine.

  Right. And I do believe money is a very energetic thing. So for example, it could be, it could even be like, this person shouldn't even be on this team. I should have fired them three months ago. And then the moment you fire them and you set that boundary here comes $30,000 that wasn't coming before. Like, I'm that serious about it?

  Um, but there's a book I recommend that really helped me. It's called overcoming, under earning my Barbara Stanny. She has a married name. Now I can't remember what it is, but if you look at Barbara, Stanny, it should come up. Right. So overcoming under earning. And there's a really cool every time I started another round of persuade to profit on like any of you there's three books, right?

  Think and grow rich science of getting rich, overcoming under earning. Right? You got to read all these books. And what I say right is like, there's this portion of the book where she kind of tests you to kind of see where your income cap is, right? I shit, you not. I've had clients that when the number gets to $250,000, they start crying because they can't even, they can't imagine themselves over making $250,000, you know?

  So it's a very eye opening book and she talks a lot about why women in particular tend to struggle with this. And I think the stat in the book is one in four. Um, workers in the United States is an under earner and most of them are women. You know, or when I worked in recruiting, I saw like the guys we asked for raises off the bat, the women never did.

  They would just take what was given to them.

  Yeah. Yeah, it is. So it is just, it's so systemic and it's so, and it's, and it's hard because when you're an entrepreneur, it's like, you don't have to ask anyone for more money. You can just generate it yourself. So then it, if it just, it becomes, we are getting in our own way.

  Right. Someone tells you, you just decide to make more money. They get pissed because you want to hear,

  so what would you say, say in terms of, cause I know, you know, like it could be a full fricking masterclass on high ticket offers and there's all sorts of high ticket offers and all sorts of ways, but what would be like.

  One, if, so let's say someone is getting ready to, and what's like your, when you say high ticket, what is like your minimum dollar amount? And I know this is very fluid and we, you know,

  fluid, I'm talking my clients on average start creating something. They could charge $2,000 for, but it doesn't require any of their time.

  Like they don't have to show up to anything. Right. So I would say the first issue people have, and this is more of a negotiation thing, right? Is just your positioning and your leverage. So part of what I help my clients do before we even get to the high ticket sales, we got to figure out what the hell you're selling.

  That's number one, because if the product's off, you're not closing shit. And if it's not well-made you're not closing shit out. If it's not actually solving problems, you're not closing shit. Right. So we usually have to start there, even if they already have stuff, normally we have to rework it. So what I like to tell my clients to do, because it's all a positioning thing.

  When it comes to high ticket sales, I'm like, we got to take what's in that beautiful brain of yours and we have to turn it into intellectual property. That's number one. Right. And when they do that normally, cause I have them go through a very specific market research process and I don't waste time on bullshit.

  Like what would this person pay for this? I don't care. They don't decide the price you do. So anybody who's asking you to go do that as a part of your market research, just ignore that question altogether. I don't have

  all the frappes. Yeah. You don't need to do

  that. You don't need to do that. Right. All of it.

  That's what I say. Right. Um, so I have them go through that process. And normally the first thing that happens is they find out, Holy shit, this is way more than I thought it was. Right. So we're looking for two things. We're looking for some sort of a system, and we're looking for transformation. The problem that a lot of people have with positioning their offers is that a, they haven't put what they know and what they're helping people with into a system.

  Right. They haven't done it. Right. And number two, they're not clear on what the transformation is. And usually they're not clear on it cause they haven't, they just haven't been around enough humans to find out you never had enough conversations to find out what it is. So that's the first thing I have them do.

  And I'm like, there needs to be three levels to this, right? If you want to keep doing one-on-one work. Sure. Fine. But it needs to be the most expensive thing on the menu. Right. And the way we're going to make it, the most expensive thing on the menu is to have an on-demand version of your system, which is usually they're charging like 2000 for it.

  Sometimes it depends, like I could have people who are doing like comprehensive Facebook ads courses. They could sell that for five grand easy or not have to show up to anything. Right. Yeah. So it depends. So let's just say it's a within that range. Right. And then we could do a group coaching version. Oh, okay.

  Well, that's more expensive because you're getting more time with me. Right. And then by that point, if someone wants to pay you, one-on-one, they're paying tens of thousands of dollars to get that much time from you. Right. And that's like a negotiation thing, right. That's not even a sales thing. That's just negotiation.

  Right. Where it's like, I have the leverage in this situation. Right. But you have to build the leverage in. But I find that a lot. So that's where we start. I'm like we got to build this leverage and we got to get the clarity once we got that, okay, now I can teach you upsells down, sells all that type of stuff and how to talk about it.

  But that's thing, number one, you have to realize, wow, what I do is expensive. And normally when I put them through that program, they realize how much work it actually is. Right? Here's the system. And here's the transformation. You figure out the system and you figure out the transformation, you can charge thousands of dollars and people will pay it because people who pay high ticket prices, that's what they're looking for.

  Right. They're not about like, they're looking to get problems solved and they're looking for a transformation if they're going to get that. And they know it and they make really fast decisions, there'll be like, okay, here you go.

  Yeah. And that was what I had to, um, I really had to learn that for myself as well.

  And. The like my husband and I were talking about this last night, cause we just got new, like finally, really nice pillows and we're like, Oh shit, this is what happens. Like as you get older, you're you're like, I just want to pay for quality. Like I just want to pay, I don't want to DIY I don't want the cheapest, like, you know, and obviously it comes with a lot of like monetary privilege.

  Like we have the means to be able to buy like the nicer pillow. Now I have a

  really funny story about pillows. If I remember you're gonna, you're gonna crack up.

  You know, there was definitely a point in our life lives before now where we wouldn't have spent this kind of money on a pillow, like for sure.

  Cause it wasn't even an option, but it's like, I, I get that now. And I get like, I am now at a point just in life and in business and everything. I don't really want to DIY anything. I just, I really, I do not want to. So I legitimately. Would rather pay someone $3,000 to just help me, even if it's a done with me, like, but just let's get that problem solved and keep this show going then $300 for a course where I'm going to learn it all.

  And then I'm a have to implant. Like it's not even it's. So I feel like once I started to shift that mindset in terms of like my P my own positioning in my business and who I'm speaking to and what you know, and all of that. And then like, you know, looking through my own lens of being like, Oh, I get it now.

  I get it because I'm not somebody. And I don't even want the like higher end thing that's filled with 20 million other things. Like I literally want ease and I have the ability to pay for it now. And so like when you I'm so glad that you mentioned positioning, because I think where people get, not even, I think I know where people get tripped up is they're looking at the people who are already there, who haven't gone about the $50 product.

  And they

  say, they believe the leads are, they're not out there. I literally just went off about this in my Facebook group. I'm like, y'all need to stop blaming the fucking leads. Okay. Like, it's not that you might be talking to the wrong people, but that's still your fault.

  Right. And, and I had to, I, I super had to learn this for myself too.

  And I was like, you know, so I feel like now, you know, it gives me a lot of like empathy and understanding to be able to coach people through it. Because literally at the time when I was like massively shifting stuff, I was like, who, who was gonna, who is gonna buy this? I don't know these people. And my coach I was working with at the time, she was like, you have to talk to new people.

  And I was like, yeah, Duh. Hi. Yes, of course. But I was like, Oh, of course. Yes. Because the person in my audience who is not spending, you know, this lower amount, because they, you know, for whatever reason that they're choosing to, they aren't spending that lower amount. Of course, I can't turn around and try to sell something that is five times as much to that same person.

  I need to be positioning myself differently in front of different people. People who would gladly pay that price to get that problem solved quickly and efficiently and

  expertly. Yeah. And I actually use it in influencer deals as well, because the only thing I still do in the financial space, because is I will do campaigns or like keynote speaking or something like that.

  Well, I mean, if my primary business is running and I don't need you to pay my bills, right. That means I don't care how many influencers you're talking to. If you want to low ball me. So I'm going to ask what I'm going to ask for it. And either I get it or I walk because I don't need you. Yeah. Right. So it's because it's that leverage thing, you know?

  Right. So I use it in that sense too.

  Yeah. Oh yeah. But no, I'm I'm I think that that is, uh, it is, I feel, I almost feel like moving, shifting into higher ticket offers. Not only, I know we've already talked about, you know, the emotional side and the historical side and the systemic side, you know, there's, there's all of the, all of those weights on us, but there is this really challenging thing.

  Like it, for me, it felt like stepping off a cliff into just in a BIS, because I was like, I don't see those people in front of me right now. So I have to just trust that they are there and. Instead of thinking about speaking to the people, like what's the people who are existing right here right now need to hear from me.

  It was like, what do those people need to need to hear from me? And literally it was like probably a three-month process where I was like, I'm shifting my messaging. I'm scared shitless. And when I say shift and I, I think you would agree with me, like, it's not a one 80, it's like a, Oh,

  it's like a, it's a tweak.

  It's a

  little weak. Yeah, well like 20 degree, like boop. And, um, and it was, it was terrifying. And I was just like, trust process, trust the process, trust the process. And wouldn't, you know, The fucking process

  worked well, that, that was me. Like I resisted really niching down to just women. I even resisted like, it's so funny because literally what I teach in persuade to profit was what I had to go through when I was making the shift.

  Right. I was resistant. I was like, I don't even want to choose between like freelance writing for financial companies and teaching people marketing. Like, I don't want to choose, like, because what if this doesn't work, then I'm going to lose all my freelance writing clients like, Oh my God. Right. Or, you know, I have clients who go through persuade to profit and they're more in a scaling stage.

  So they really got to nail down some systems. Cause we covered that. Right. And they're like, well, all this stuff is working one-on-one but I'm working 24 seven and I have no time for myself. And now I'm going to move in this new direction over here and I'm freaking out because what if it doesn't work?

  Right. Right. So it's like totally normal. And it, yeah, it's a little scope, but there is that time of unknown or even me, like the last three weeks, I was literally building out a self-liquidating offer funnel. Right. That took time away from the sales, which is high ticket sales, which is bringing me tons of money.

  Right. No, I was in a position to do it right. To take that time off and figure it out and finish it. But do you know how many times throughout this process? I was like, did you, are you doing the right thing? Shouldn't, shouldn't you be doing this thing over here? What are you doing? Are you out of your fucking mind?

  Right. Like the story's just like, what if it doesn't work? Oh my God. Right. And then literally within an hour of going live, we were making sales. Right. So I was like, okay. So it was okay for you to take three weeks away from this it's thing that, you know, that makes you a ton of money to make this tiny little shift over here.

  Right. And now you're back at it and you're fine. Right. So, no, I totally get it. I feel like. I had to do that when I was moving away from freelancing, I had to do that the first time I put persuade to profit out into the market. I had to do that when I quit freelancing. Right. I had to do that when I hired people for the first time I had to do that.

  Um, when I was taking time away from sales to build out backend systems, I feel like I had to do that in 2020, where I had been avoiding narrowing down and niching and just talking to women, I knew for a year I had to do it, but I was so scared to do it. Right. And then in 2020, it became totally obvious that this was like the move I needed to make, but I was so resistant to it for the same reason.

  Yeah. And it's, it's just nice. Like, and I know, gosh, I won't, I won't keep you where like, over, over time, it's just such a fun conversation, but, um, I really appreciate your transparency, you know, in, in all of it. And I, I always aim to just like normalize this, like I know, I know I already said it before, but like hearing, hearing all of those, those things and like, I see it, like in, in the, in the club, like in the private Facebook community, like you've shared wins, you shared fears.

  Like you, you know, been very like vulnerable and transparent and. And I think that that is so it's so important. It's so important. I think to, because it would be so easy for somebody just to look at you a numbers alone and go, well, you know, she's just killing it and she's got it all figured out and everything is sunshine and roses.

  And I wish I could have a business with that kind of numbers. Right. But it's like, yeah, but that's missing the part where you're like, Oh, I had to keep learning and adjusting and changing and taking step backs in order to move forward. And that there was a lot of fear and a lot of like hurdles that you already had to get over.

  And like, knowing that there will be more, but we will, like, you can figure out that next challenge when you get there and you can ramp up your skill set when you get there. And like, you know, you could quote like a quarter of a million dollar contract and not sweat through your clothes. Uh, you know, and, and.

  It won't, it won't even be a thing, but that it's like we, we have to give ourselves the time and learn the skills and try the skills, even when they're really, they feel a little bit like. Uncomfortable or scary in order to get to the end goal of where we want it, stay

  in the resistance and move through it.

  I appreciate that. You say that literally number one on Instagram, there's like this joke because when I started the process of scaling my business, I had this thing called adventures and scaling where I basically just complained about what a bitch scaling is. So people, so people would like, know like, Hey, this is what you're getting into because no one talks about it.

  It's like, you're just getting started or you already had a million dollars, but nobody talks about that stage in the middle, which is horrendous. Like it's worth it, but it's horrendous. Right. And that's probably why no one talks about it, but I decided no, I'm going to put this out there. Right. Cause if you're going to do this, you, you need to know the fuck.

  You're getting yourself into that's number one. Um, and because I couldn't find anybody who was talking about it, so I just decided to talk about it. And then on Monday, Of this week. It's so funny because we were launching this thing and like, I was up at six in the morning fixing tech problems. Right?

  Cause like, for example, like people were trying to buy, but the orders weren't going through. Cause some API broker or whatever, I'm up at six in the morning in my bed trying to figure out what this damn tech issue is. Right. And I took a picture of myself with the bed hair, like, um, bags under my eyes, like still in my pajamas.

  And I'm like, I wanted to post this. So you guys see that sometimes this is what it takes, and this is what it looks like. Sometimes it's not like this all the time and it shouldn't be like this all the time. And if it is like this all the time, something's wrong. Right. But sometimes this is what it actually looks like.

  And you don't see that on all the pretty filters and Instagram. I wanted to post this picture. So you

  all see it. Yeah. I really, I super appreciate that because, um, and part of why I just like, as an aside, I think it's, I think community in entrepreneurship is just vital because you need to have other people where you can be open and vulnerable with and say like, I'm having my best month ever, but now I'm freaking out because I'll never be able to replicate it.

  Like I've had boxer conversations with friends, like where my friend is. Like, I just hit a month that I could have never dreamed and I'm crying in a parking lot because I emotionally can't handle it. And I feel like I'm never going to be able to do it again. And like, that is some real shit. I know it's hard because then people are like, Oh, well you, you know, guy would fricking kill for like that much money in a month, but it's like, yeah, there's, there's just so much other shit that, that goes on.

  It's like the, um, I just, I I've been talking to my stories this week about it, of like normalizing, like there are ways and I feel like this, the sales part, which is why, like, I'm so glad that you wanted to come on is, um, you know, it's, it is, it's a tool in a tool belt that makes things easier. And it's great to like, I want ease.

  I want things to be easier. I want to. Have white space on my calendar and do work. I love with people I care about and all of that good stuff and make great money. But like, there is no mountain top. There's just new challenges. Like you get comfortable selling that one thing. And then now you're suddenly, like, I know people who've, I've worked scaling.

  They could sell their one-to-one in their fricking sleep. But now they're like, I'm going to do a group program and I'm shitting my pants. Yeah,

  no, I, I help people through that transition all the time. I'm like, listen, you're going to share your pants now. But when you're on the other side, you're going to quit doing the one-on-one because it's just, you don't have the time anymore, unless someone's going to pay you like.

  A bajillion dollars. Like you're not doing it if they pay me, but Jillian dollar is fine and now you're positioned for them to pay you a bajillion dollars.

  Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I like the stay in the resistance because I feel, I feel like that's exactly like using staying there, resistance encompasses all of it.

  Like there is new resistance at every single level. It's just acclimating yourself to get comfortable and trusting that like you will figure it out when you get to that level. Yeah. I mean, you'll partner with people who will help you figure it out. Right.

  And, and. Again, I try to be transparent. I've talked about it on my podcast and that actually leads to more sales because people are like, you're not gonna no bullshit me.

  Are you? And I'm like, I am absolutely not going to bullshit you. So I'm sure it might've lost me some sales, but it's also made me a lot of sales. And the reason for that yeah. Is because you have an integrity stack. Right? So part of the reason people feel like so gross about sales and I'm like, well, half the time.

  It's because you are somehow out of integrity with yourself in some way, shape or form. And then that's why you're feeling fucked up when you're doing sales. Right. So if I have nothing to hide, I've put it all out here. I'm not pretending to be somebody that I'm not like the best compliment someone can give me is, Oh my God, you're the same person that you are online.

  Which I always find weird because I'm like, well, who the fuck else would I be? But at the same time, I have had instances where I like idolized a person. And then I met them in person and they were a total disappointment. So yeah, I get it. Right. But for a long time, I was like, huh, what, who else would I be?

  And that actually makes it sales easier because you've got nothing to hide. You have nothing to prove you're in integrity with yourself. So that gross feeling that people are afraid of. If you are in integrity with yourself every day, that feeling goes away. Or at least it's not as strong or it's a different kind of feeling it's like that excitement or the adrenaline, but it's not the I'm a fraud and they're different.

  Yes. Oh, that is, I feel like that's, that is the perfect place to end it because I. You know, for anyone who's like been, been in my neck of the woods, um, and the digital space for long enough, they know that integrity is my highest, it's my highest value. And that is spot on when you are in integrity with your offers, with your positioning, with who, you know, you want to serve

  and all, it's just who you are.

  Like, if you're going to work, if you say you're going to work out three times a week, fucking workout three times a week, otherwise you're telling your brain, you can't be trusted.

  Yeah.

  Yeah,

  yeah. That was my, my, um, my biggest lesson of last year was self-trust and honest to God. It made, even though I already was like leading with integrity and I feel very much in integrity in everything with everything I do.

  But, um, self-trust, that was a, that was a game changer. And I, you know, it sounds like it's sort of the same with you. You trust that you get people results. So it's. Not hard for you at all to show up and sell what you have, because you're like, I know it's going to change someone's life when they invest in this thing.

  And I know what kind of is going on out here too. Oh

  yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wheatley completely. So I, I love, I just love that you, that you said that because yeah, I feel like, you know, it's, there will always be shitty assholes in business. Always. There have always been snake oil salesman. There will continue to be, but I feel like the benefit now is people live their lives.

  So publicly it's fairly easy to see someone's values and learn about them and, and kind of. Hang in their neck of the woods, um, in the digital space and see like, do I actually, do I get the sense, this person is authentic, that they're living in integrity and they're not going to screw me over. And

  then I want to say one final thing.

  I want to thank you because I just had a massive aha moment while you were talking because as my business expands and we're scaling and moving to seven figures, there's a part of me. That's like the imposter syndrome comes up every single time. Right. And then there's a part of me that's like, okay, well now there's a certain expectation on you and everything needs to be great like that story's been coming in.

  Right. So the fact that you just said that it's like, wait a minute, like. I just gave myself permission to not be perfect again. Cause I didn't because even though I wasn't being perfect because like, listen, literally just posted on Monday, like embed fighting with tech, right? Yeah. But there's a part of me that's like, no, every now there's a certain expectation on you.

  So like everything needs to be a win. And I didn't realize until just now, while you were just saying that, wait a minute, you've already been sharing all the losses all along the way and you're still making money. It just keeps sharing all the losses. Like it's great.

  Yes. Uh, that makes me so happy to hear, but it's it again, there it is.

  It's like new level resistance. Like you got to work through it. Like it's just that I got, I feel like if I could just go back and like tell my younger self that things would be so much, so much easier just to be like no chill out. There's no mountain top. It's just going to be a new, a new heart at every level.

  But like. You will, you will figure it out.

  You'll figure it out. And you went to trust yourself to figure it out.

  Yes, absolutely. Well, this was super, super fun. I'm like all of your contact info and everything is going to be in the show notes, but where can people hang with you and learn more?

  Yeah. So you can find everything, everything, everything on my website, which is Amanda obey.com.

  My last name is spelled a, B as in boy, E L L e.com. Um, if you're interested in getting a little taste, um, and if you're interested in learning more about positioning, part of what I teach is how to get PR and how to get leads in that way. Cause I was a former writer, so I know where things are too. So if you go to, um, I believe it's Amanda bay.com forward slash pitch three six, five.

  Um, you can get like a series of calendars there and it's going to have different. It has like 365 ideas for different angles to pitch the media depending on what. Um, industry you're in, so we've got like five different industries. So if you're like, okay, well, how do I do this positioning? It's like all the energetic stuff we were talking about on that's where it starts.

  Right. And then there's also the tactical stuff, like building your authority. So if you want to start getting a little taste, um, you and building that authority and helping you with that positioning, you can start there.

  Awesome. Love it. Love it. I'll be sure to put that in the show notes and thank you again.

  I mean, God, I could have talked forever, but I'm glad you're welcome. And I'm so I'm glad for your aha at the end there. And I can't wait to celebrate you when you cross the seven figure Mark. Cause it's, it's obviously coming and you will not be perfect Ben, and it won't even matter and it

  won't even matter.

  So thank you. You have blessed me with that today.

  Yay. My work here is done. Awesome. Well, that was wonderful. Thank you again. So, so much.