Ep. 090: Imperfect Allyship in Business with Erica Courdae
For business owners who want to run more ethical and inclusive businesses that means opening up to learning, listening, and changing. And the work is often uncomfortable, but it's necessary. In 2021 we can no longer pretend we don't know about systemic inequalities. At this point if you aren't doing the work to consciously create a more just, equitable, inclusive, and anti-racist business, then you are choosing to cause more harm. Even if the intent isn't there, the impact is. Entrepreneurs are constantly having to do new things & push themselves out of their comfort zones. This means we can do hard work! And because our businesses give us tremendous opportunities for positive impact, we need to commit to doing what is right for everyone, not just a select few.
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I am so incredibly thrilled and honored to have today's guest on the stellate sister podcast. And I know that you are going to love this episode and also learn so, so much from it. So in this episode, I'm chatting with Erica Corday who has dedicated her life to expanding how others interact with the world through powerful conversations.
As an entrepreneur and certified coach, her work is focused on diversity, equity and inclusion, imperfect allyship. And imposter syndrome. This work has taken her into communities and onto national stages as a speaker and educator at noteworthy industry events like alt summit, she podcast live and being boss.
Erica is also the owner of an inclusive beauty salon, silver immersion, and the host of pause on the play. A podcast that features open dialogue on topics like company, culture, visibility, and mindset. You can find her after the episode@ericacordae.com or@pawsontheplay.com, be sure to subscribe to her podcast and join her podcast community as well.
And I will just say for myself, I know if you caught the final episode of 2020. I mentioned that my hope going into 2021 is that people would move beyond merely reading books on, uh, you know, really important topics like DEI and anti-racism work and what actually. Start implementing and doing deep, deep work around this, uh, both, you know, for their own lives.
And also as it relates to our businesses, because our businesses impact the lives of others. As well. So this work is really important. And so I am thrilled that I get to kick off the year with some more actionable steps and information that you can take and start using in your own business. And I also want to add a couple of additional things.
This episode is airing the week after the us inauguration, and it has been already a tumultuous January. And I really feel like we cannot pretend that these uncomfortable moments are going to keep coming up where we need to be responsive in our messaging and our marketing. And we need to actually learn what we can do without freaking out about getting it right.
Or appearing performative or any of those things. Because as. Modern entrepreneurs. We need to be mindful in our marketing. If we want to have the, you know, businesses that truly reflect who we are as people and in our values and all of that. And so I don't think that I think it would be reckless to assume that post inauguration, everything will just be easy breezy and there will never be moments.
Were really challenging things come up and we have to stop and really reflect on, are we going to say something? Are we going to use our platforms? You know, and how is that going to come across? And how can we be more, you know, diverse, equitable, inclusive, and anti-racist in our businesses. And I will also say that for the work that I have done around this.
It is not done. It is never, it is never done. And I feel like more than anything. And we touch on it a little bit later in this episode. Um, but I, I just really wanted to, uh, emphasize it at the top, is that the more I learn and the more I do this work and I'm, and I'm open to it and I'm open to the discomfort and the dialogue and the feedback and the making of adjustments.
The more I have realized that. These are not checkable boxes. This is not a situation where there's a, uh, end point to the journey, right? There's no destination that we get to with this work. And that, that is okay. And that is something that we can embrace and we can do hard things in business. We can do hard things in life and this.
This is a hard but necessary thing that we can and we should do. And so I just hope that it doesn't, uh, that, that nobody makes the assumption that, Oh, you know, I I've, I've done some work. I did some masterminds. I, you know, read some books. I did some things and it's like, Great. I'm I'm done. I did what I needed to do now.
My business is perfectly safe for all people. It's perfectly inclusive. It's perfectly everything. And now I'm just moving on and shifting back to new ways to make money in my business because no, it couldn't be further from the truth. It has made me realize that there are so many. Uh, growth areas and opportunities for me, there are so many, uh, assumptions and biases and, um, things that I'm just overlooking based on my own lived experience and that being able to learn and listen and change is actually a gift and not, and not a hindrance.
And. Uh, it's work that I'm committed to. I hope it's work that you're committed to because at my absolute core, why I started this business in the first place is because I believe that businesses and being able to have control of how we make money and how we, you know, use a capitalist. System that is often harmful to instead help others and ourselves.
I feel like there is, there is power and there is agency in using that. And my whole mission has been to improve our own circumstances and improve the lives of others through our businesses. And so this is a task that we need to take up as part of that, because when, when we collectively do this. What is often very uncomfortable work.
We can actually change the world and win when you have a modern business. And when you're marketing online, we have the luxury of having a platform. Even if you only have a house hundred people who follow you, it's still a hundred people who follow you, who are listening to you, who you can positively impact too.
You can. Uh, you know, show them your values. You can show them what you feel is, is what is right and what is not acceptable, uh, in your space. So I just wanted to put that out there. This is, this is a big topic, right? This is not just like, Oh, let me help you have better. You know, I don't know. It's conversion rates, right?
It's this is so much more than that. And I really hope that you find Erica follow Erica and all those places where she is, and that you commit to yourself and within your company that in 2021, or if you're way in the future, and you're listening to old episodes that wherever you are at. That you commit to doing this work and embracing, being an imperfect ally in the process, because I know I am, but I am fully embracing the imperfection of it because I, I just, I know, I know how important.
It is. And I know that it's impossible to get it right. A hundred percent of the time and nobody does. So that should not be the metric that we strive for. And Erica and I talk about this a lot more in the episode, probably the longest intro I've ever done, but it's important. Cause we were talking about, we're talking about humans here.
We're talking about real humans and. Real opportunities for growth. And so it needed a longer, it needed a longer intro, but I will, I will stop yapping now and get into the episode because it is just so, so freaking great. Okay. Enjoy. Hi Erica. Welcome to the it sister podcast. It's so nice to have you.
Hello, Erica. How are you today? I am doing pretty well. All things, all things considered in the world. I will take that. And it's funny. Cause I guess like a normal thing I ask and we almost feel like, wait, is it a trick question? I don't know how to answer this, but I always think it's legitimately important to be like, wait, how are you right now?
Like really I'm actually asking. So. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I would ask the same to you. And I would preface this by saying that we are recording the week before the inauguration. And so post attempted coup free inauguration. So how are you feeling? I am motivated. That's the best word I can pick? Like there was a point that yes, exhaustion, you know, that always is a little bit of a.
Kind of a constant, I guess, because you just don't know. And I think after 2020, there's that point of like, is there something coming? It's almost like a horrible, like you're waiting, but for me, those things don't make me want to retreat or like, let me just go hide or calling a corner. No, it usually makes me want to fight and interact and, and do that much more.
Yeah, I really, I love it of that response. And actually I was having a conversation with some friends, some business friends last week. And, uh, we were also having a conversation like, you know, how, how is everyone doing? And like trying to focus on getting work done and everything after last Wednesday. And, um, and I was like, yeah, I feel like the cadence of 2020, it was like these moments where you're just like, I, I literally can't focus.
And then I feel like. Shortly after it, almost like it re it like re galvanizes me for the work that I do. And like, like you said, it motivates. And, but I, I do need to like sit in it for, for a minute and yeah. Well, cause you feel like there's that, and then all of a sudden it's like, here's a hyper-focus that you can do too much.
And so you do have to be very cognizant of not. Like pushing too hard or overworking yourself because you're like, Oh no, I'm motivated. And it's like, no, this is part of it. As you trying to hide or trying to shove it down. Or if I just work hard enough, I can push it all away. And so we do have to be very aware of, is this because I want to do this or is this because this feels like the safest, most concrete thing I can do right now, because I need to hold onto something.
Yeah, absolutely. That, that is a really good, uh, Like differentiator. I feel like between the two. So I know we're gonna definitely get into imperfect allyship and tokenization and in marketing and all of that, which is super, super important. But you also have a really cool backstory. You haven't always done, like you haven't always been an online DEI consultant.
So I want, I want you to be able to share a bit more about your backstory and your brick and mortar business. So for me, I have been in the beauty industry for over 20 years. Um, I started off doing an apprenticeship. I've worked in all types of different salons. I've been assistant manager, I've been manager.
I was an instructor at a Paul Mitchell cosmetology school. I in 2009, finally decided to open my own salon because the short answer was I was working somewhere and felt like I could. Treat my clients better, I could provide better service. And so that, you know, was a big part of the, the full jump into entrepreneurship, because I had been, you know, kind of doing weddings before and things like that.
But this was like, no, I I'm, I'm in this now. And over the years, you know, I always felt like I served. Who it felt good to serve? Not that we taught people. No, but people gravitated to us. And we noticed that it was very rare to have people that we were like, Oh, they were awful to work with like that. And, and within the wedding industry, so many people are afraid, cause they're like, Oh my gosh.
Right. Zealous. And we're like, no, we really don't get that. And before marriage equality. Became something that was legalized. We served same-sex couples that still wanted to commit to each other. They still wanted the same process. And for me, it was something that felt very similar to interracial marriage of, you know, just about, you know, a little over 60 years ago where.
It was illegal. Somebody says, you can't do this. I don't agree with this. Or I don't want you to do it, even though this doesn't impact me. And so we did a lot to make it clear that we not only supported same-sex couples, that they were welcome there, but that if this was something that you weren't okay with, we didn't want to work with you.
So that was a huge part of what started my allyship and understanding kind of what that looked like to be there. And when I learned more about what coaching was, because I didn't, I had no idea what it was at all. And I'm like, yeah, I think this is something I've been doing. Yeah, like my whole life, the talking with people, the hearing, what they didn't say, helping them to realize what they already know and supporting them in making tough decisions, whether that was something that was within their life or their relationships, or if it was literally, I'm a black woman and I work for a government agency and I am nervous to wear my hair natural because I don't want to be judged and have my authority undermined.
These are the types of conversations. That I had, and these were commonplace for me. So when I realized that this was an actual career path, I went and took all my classes and got certified as an ICF coach and found out that, wait, the is a thing too, wait, this is what I do. Like, this is huge. And so it definitely set the stage for me for what Erica court date looks like today.
I love that. And I think it's always really interesting to hear the backstory of different entrepreneurial journeys, because it's so often in the moment, like moving forward in time, it almost looks a bit disjointed, but looking back, you're like, Oh, I see how all of the pieces work together. I see how this is, what was the thing I was meant to do.
And I was really doing it all along and I just didn't even know. And that right there is the thing. Cause I used to always call myself the accidental entrepreneur because I didn't plan on having it. Yeah. And business, it was like, all right, people are paying me and I can make a business. So I don't really know what that means when here we are.
And you know, to really look at it, what it means to be in a supportive and co-creative relationship when it comes to coaching. That was something that. I had been doing. And then I finally stepped into it from a place of intentionality, but being really clear that this is what I'm doing. And so I want to do it through this lens purposefully.
Yeah. I love that. And it's, I imagine, like you said, your previous places you worked, you felt like they just sounds like we're not aligned with your values and how you want it to. Really serve your clients. Were you finding, um, specifically like the one woman that you just mentioned, did you have a lot of clientele who may be.
Wanted their hair natural or had very specific hair needs. And I'm just going to generalize here that like, perhaps a, your average white hairstylist was like, I don't, I can't serve you. I don't know how to serve you. Is that what? Cause I've, I've heard that from, you know, friends and other people that it's, it can be really hard.
That was a huge part. And the beauty industry. And I remember having this conversation previously and I've had it again recently, the beauty industry and religion specifically churches are two of the most, if not the most segregated spaces that we still have, because most people from a beauty standpoint, you're going to go to someone hair or makeup or even body treatments that looks like you.
They are somehow going to feel relatable because you see yourself kind of mirrored back and. I learned how to do all types of hair. My clientele is pretty close to being 50 50 of being of color and then, you know, being white. And so I. And, and let me also acknowledge that that's the, still the surface, because that doesn't touch on the fact that hair texture is not about your race or ethnicity at all.
Because I have clients that are white, that have hair that is kinkier than mine. I have clients that are black, whose hair is straighter than mine. And so that doesn't yeah. Necessarily indicated, however, that's how things are set up. And I mean, I remember that even when I was a cosmetology instructor. And so seeing that mirrored all the way from the education stage to people, literally working in spaces and doing it this way, there was absolutely this preconceived bias of people coming in and assuming who was going to be able to do their hair well.
And I made it a point for those that wanted to learn. That didn't look like me. I taught them how to do what I did because I'm also a senior cosmetologist, so I can teach people how to do it. Like I actually can take on apprentices. And so being in that position of having clients give someone a hard time that maybe they couldn't do their hair.
When I knew I had taught them how to do this. I had taught them how to do textured hair, even though their hair was not textured or people looking at me like, can you do highlights? Can you do belly ODG and all of these other things? And it's like, yes, I can. And I'm pretty good at it. So yeah. You know, there was, there was definitely that space of.
People assuming what it was. And that is another one of those pieces that you mentioned before of like, I didn't think about it, but that whole breaking, that preconceived notion idea that you walked in with and saying, no, that's actually not what this has to be. Let's just completely break that mold and figure out why you even thought that that was the narrative that you came in to follow.
Because I often was the PR, like I would go into a wedding. And they would see me walk in and it could be a room full of white women. And they're like, Oh, she's going to do my hair. And nobody would ever want to go first. And then a bride's already met me. So she knows, but she's not going first. And somebody sits in the chair first, if I, and I usually just would pull someone and say, you know, we'll go ahead and get you done.
And then after that, then everybody wants to go. Cause they're like, Oh, okay. You can actually do it. I see this now. Yeah. Now I see it. And it's, yeah, it shows up in so many ways, but hair and makeup are two ways that are so crystal clear to really see how it plays out and to understand that this happens in life all the time.
Yeah. And I, it's really interesting that you mentioned about like the segregated spaces and everything of, you know, salons, and I know that, um, So my hairstylists and I, cause I have like with my wild color hair, that is, uh, I am there for like four or five hours at a clip when I go. And, uh, it's a very intimate relationship.
Like it's not just, Oh, can they do the job and do it? Well, it's like, if you're spending time with somebody, you, you have to have a relationship with them. I feel like. And. Have that mutual trust going? Both ways. And it is very, like, almost like private and like really set like a special relationship. I feel like that forums, I have clients that I feel like they've told me things that they probably haven't even told, you know, their, their sister or their significant other, just because I'm close enough that you feel comfortable to tell me and you see me often, and I'm literally touching you.
Like, I'm literally having to touch you and yet I'm not completely embroiled in everything. So I'm far enough away that I feel objective enough for you to say, well, what do you think? Or what's your opinion, or to have this conversation and not feel judged or feel like somebody is going to pass, uh, an assumption on who you are, how you are, what you do we should be doing.
And so it absolutely lends itself to a very unique kind of relationship. And yet a very, very intimate type of trust. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's uh, yeah, I feel like, um, I, I just have, I feel like churches are so obvious in the fact that like E you know, when people church shop it's like, yeah, because you're looking for certain ideologies.
Like they might all be, you know, one type of religion, but each one is going to have its own. You know, like factions almost. Yeah. Yeah. And you kinda want, you know, like, is it like the hip young church or is it like more traditional it's like, yeah, because you want to be like, with the community that also holds your like belief systems or looks like you acts like you toxic, you know, the whole, the whole thing.
Um, but I never, I never thought of it in terms of salons though, but yeah, that's, that's totally real. Um, And I, I imagine. And I'm so glad you mentioned the marriage equality and how you were serving those clients before. As you know, we began to talk about imperfect allyship because I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that probably as you embarked on being more inclusive to that one marginalized group, you probably had.
Like oops moments, right? Like you probably had to practice your own imperfect allyship, or am I wrong in that, like things that you had to learn or you growth areas? Definitely not wrong because for me, what it, part of it was being willing to ask, you know, is there anything that we could do differently?
How did you feel? Were you comfortable? Did you feel affirmed? Did you feel safe and. Being able to take the feedback and, and even, even if it's, you know, cause I guess I look at it like if the feedback isn't perfect, then you're being given clear indicators of what to do. But if you're not getting any definitive of like this didn't work, this could have been better than you're almost having to read between the lines and see what more can you do?
And so I remember for example, going in. And changing our contracts instead of saying, you know, bride and groom or. Bridesmaids it, we changed it all to like partner. We changed things to attendant. Um, for a while there we changed wedding to event, but then it felt confusing because then people were like, well, w what does that mean?
And so in perfectly, we kept wedding only because it was a universally used word that people understood what it was, even if that wasn't what. They were calling their particular ceremony. It was something that if they were looking for vendors or specific things to support that that was what they had to look under.
And so that's one of those things where it's like, it would be lovely to have a better word. I don't know what that word is at this particular moment, but it would be completely open to changing what that is. And so there were definitely points where it was like, you know, What's the language that you're using or how can we shift this and having a team it's also making sure that, you know, if I send someone out that.
They are able to support the overarching mission that the brand is there to do without me having to be there. So I felt like it's also a teachable moment and making sure that it's clear what this is and what this can't be, and being very open to hearing what can be done differently. And I think sometimes the smallest things really do make the biggest difference.
Yeah, I love that. And I think, uh, I, we moved, uh, to a totally different state a year ago and then COVID hit. And so now we've been going back and setting up all those, you know, just like the appointments as you do, eye doctor dentist, like, and, um, and what has really been interesting in that process is obviously you have to fill out all these new client forms and I have it's it's.
Truly been something on my mind that I'm like, okay, I just need to figure out like, who's the office manager. How can I like, like, who can I contact that can actually affect this change? But because I've noticed on a lot of the forms, it's very. Binary gendered in how they do it, even to the extent, like one of them, instead of just saying, are you pregnant?
I get, I understand medically, like they that's good to know. So they don't accidentally like do something they're not supposed to. Right. But it's said like, ladies comma, are you pregnant? And I was like, Oh, this has got, this has got to be changed, but it's that, you know, it's the, the. Yeah. It's like, it's a, it's a small thing, but I, I haven't stopped thinking about it for weeks.
Like I went to the eye doctor just before Christmas. It's now mid January and I'm like, I'm still like, I I'm going to have to be that I'm going to have to use my like white care and energy in a polite way to be like, can you just change that? Cause I'm like, you know, for me, I'm, I'm personally not like I'm a CIS woman.
It's not, you know, like, am I pregnant or not like, whatever, I'm the default. Right. But I'm like, Yeah, but what if like the next, what if the next person is, is not, what if they're different and what if that is like just another tiny microaggression, like in their day that they don't need to deal with when they're just getting their eyes checked.
And this is where I'm going to say that I know for us, when we had our contracts, it felt like a small shift to change that wording for us in the sense that like, you know, it didn't cost us any money to do it. It, we didn't have to fully break a system to do it so small in the sense that it didn't take a lot to do it, but the impact is so affirming and so reassuring and it's such a sign of safety.
And so what you noticed was a wasn't small. That was absolutely something that could make somebody feel fully invalidated fully. Like you're not welcome here because I'm not acknowledging what your reality is. I've completely said that this is how this works. It works in this one box, in this one box only.
And so I really do think that it is when I, when I think of that concept of being small. It's more about that thing of like what needed to be shifted or changed. You know, whatever that is, what did you invest to do that? Or what did you lose? You know, was it time, you know, was it effort? Was it another client?
Was it money? And so it's looking at like, what was, what's that whole saying? Nothing, ventured, nothing gained kind of thing. So what did you do in order to make this shift? And because for them it's a contract that, you know, or an intake form that needs to be changed. But they wouldn't truly lose anything by, by putting that in there because at the end of the day, changing that verbiage would not change the answer.
And I think about that from a sense of like, Oh, let's say it had to go into a spreadsheet. That's not going to change the answers. Right. It's not going to change like, you know, the, the, the form value or what the cell value. So it's not like doing this is going to fully break everything and you have to restructure your entire intake.
No. You just need to say, are you currently pregnant? Yes. All you need to do is just put some white out on the rest and just photocopy better next time. Like you just do. And then when it comes time, you change it and you change it more permanently. But that's one of those things that, again, it's, it feels like it's a small thing, but it's small because it doesn't really cost them anything.
But what does it cost? The person that has to receive it? Yeah. That's. Yes, that is huge. That is absolutely huge. Am I imagine, like, did you know in asking for the feedback in your salon, did you ever have times I'm assuming yes, but like, were somebody said actually I would have preferred if you did this or said this and.
I know it can be hard just even when we're not talking about heavy topics, just anything like, Oh, did you like that course? I created like, we're afraid to ask. Cause we're like, what if they say, or what if they give feedback? And they're actually like super disappointed and, or, you know, and we, we make it a big story in our mind, but when it's much, much heavier topics, I feel like it feels even.
Scarier to ask and to, and to really be a good listener. So like, how did it feel for you to be like, I am going to be open to the reality that I may have in my intent wasn't there, but the impact was, and like, I'm going to have to feel that when I hear that, I am very fortunate in this moment to say that I don't feel as though I had a moment that.
I had a client that felt like you did you did this totally wrong or this didn't feel good. I will say that I maybe had moments where I over-thought it in my own head and people have been like, Oh, I didn't even think about that. But in my head I'm like, Oh my God, because I'm a chronic, over-thinker recovering, but still there.
And. You know, and that's not because I don't think that I ever did anything wrong. It's because maybe I'm just not aware of it. Right. It's not because I don't think that I'll ever do anything wrong. It's just, if it happens, I don't want that to be the reason that I'm unwilling to continue moving forward.
I think one of the things that was really helpful was taking the time to ask things in a way that allowed for people. To lead me to the information that I needed without making them feel as though I put them on the spot. So for example, if I mentioned, you know, Hey, is it just going to be you getting your hair and makeup done on the day of, and they're like, Oh, well, you know, I'm going to have my sister and then I have three other bridesmaids.
Okay. You've used the word bridesmaids. Okay. So now you've affirmed that I can use that. If you say I have a few other friends, I'm not going to assume that their bridesmaids, because we've had numerous weddings where one of the members, um, of that particular half of the couple, those particular attendance, some have been trans.
Some have been been men. And so I don't want to assume that you're going to have three women standing behind you. That's not up to, for me to decide. And so if I leave it open and I'm asking you, then I'm giving you the opportunity to language it in a way that I can then follow. But I am letting you know that I am curious, and I do want to know, so that from a service provider standpoint, I can be able to provide what's needed, but I'm also letting you lead.
I'm not trying to lead because it's not about me. I am allowing that space for you to be the person. That is in control here. It's not about me. And I think that that is something that a lot of people miss, they want to be the expert. They want to be the person that like, Oh, I know all things you don't being the smartest person in the room, or so you tell yourself is a liability.
Yeah. Yeah. And you are never the expert on somebody else's lived experience or their perspective. Yeah. And that's why it's so important to leave that space for people to feel as though you are listening and caring enough to allow them to walk into that space versus labeling and addressing and assigning it for them.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I, I really appreciate that. That is, that is such a good, important reminder. Be it business life. Just anything that's. Yeah. I love that. So I know, obviously, because you know, the people listening are entrepreneurs and I know my audience. Are, they are people who they want to be ethical. They want to do the right thing.
They want to be inclusive. Like they're, you know, our values are, are closely aligned and that is why they listen. But I also know I have, you know, a large portion of my audience is white or, you know, maybe a person of color, but not black. And. I do have a lot of queer listeners, but a lot of SIS listeners, you know, and all of that.
And I know that it 2020 showed us, like we have to showcase our values. We have to speak out. We have to show that, you know, Hey, I, if you are different than me, if you look different than me, that's okay. Like we can still work together. So I'm going to modify my website or I'm going to do this, that, and the other.
But I know there's also this like undercurrent of that fear that like bodily fear of I'm gonna, you know, inadvertently do something wrong. I'm going to say something wrong. I'm going to get canceled or called out. I'm going to, you know, hurt someone's feelings. And I didn't mean to, and so, you know, it's, it's this like, uh, Kind of like this, this big tug, this like internal, like back and forth.
And I know that one of the things you talk about and we're going to talk about is, you know, as part of imperfect allyship is not tokenizing or how to, how to not just like slap up a picture and like, or not, not make your space inadvertently like less safe or, or less inclusive without that fear of it having to, of having to get it.
Get it right. All the time. And so, yeah, I know you're going to share some examples of ways that you see people are getting this wrong and then also how they can get it. Right. Because yeah, I feel like now it's just, we just know, like we, we have to put it out there, but you know, just like with anything in business, like even doing a, like, You know, a sales page, there's so much pressure of like what's the right way.
And I want to make sure that every, you know, all my, you know, T's are crossed and my I's are dotted and everyone is happy. But in doing this work, I know like it's, it's hard to embrace the fact that failure will be part of the mix and like what we do when we fail. And that's the thing, I think that's so important because as, as entrepreneurs.
We don't know at all. And so much of it has literally been baptism by fire. Like we figured it out the hard way. And for those of us that even before COVID operated mainly or exclusively online, there's always a new platform. There's always something changing. Oh, I didn't know about that. And so we're constantly in a state of evolution.
And we're all constantly trying to figure out how to do this better. And so with this entire spirit of figuring out what it looks like to do better by trying and figuring it out, somehow we have gotten to this point with this, this particular thing, and we're like, Oh, I can't do that. And it's like, wait, really?
This is where we're going to stop. This is where we get stuck. And I don't say that to say that it's easy, but none of it is. If you were to go to someone five years before they started a business and said, okay, so you're going to quit your job. You're not going to have health benefits anymore. You're going to lose half of your savings as you dump it into something that you're not quite sure it's going to work.
You're going to hope that it is. You're not going to have a blueprint. You're not going to really know how to do this and where to find clients, but this is going to work out. You on board, nobody's going to say yes that, and I feel like it's this place of, if you are still in a place that you said yes to that, why are we not being willing to say yes to doing better?
When it comes to allyship and supporting people that don't look live or love? Like you. That don't have the same level of visibility and access that you do that don't have the same level of safety and security and ability to thrive that you do. We're going to say no to basic human needs, but we'll say yes to what feels like a full.
Gambling binge to open up a business and to think about it in that way. It's like, Oh, well, yeah, that, and that's kind of how I look at it because I look at people that last year when George Floyd was murdered and I saw people that all of a sudden did the very reactionary things. And you can clearly look back now and see how their feed was very white.
And a lot of times, just them. And then all of a sudden there was like the black square. Then it's like, you know, you'll see black and Brown people for about two rows and then it went all homogenous all over again. They went all back to quotes all back to the entrepreneurs face. And so that is just a very real version of what it looks like to see performative actions show up.
Yeah, because you did what you needed to in that moment, because you didn't want to be canceled, but you didn't change anything. Yeah. Now, if you see someone and the reason I bring up the black square, because the black square was a huge thing. And when that came up, I literally went on. And did an Instagram live that day that still to this day is a very supportive one that I can share because it clearly laid out what was and was not okay with the follow, the leader types of actions when traumatic incidents do occur.
And people, there were some people that were like, wow, I didn't think about it that way. A shifted how they did it. And then they began to make changes in their business. They actually took the time to be clear on what their values were, what the values were of their business, how they intersected and informed each other.
And how does that impact. The way that you show up who you're speaking to, whether or not those people want to hear from you, are you able to see what they say are lived experiences? Are, can you speak to them in a way that it actually does connect with them and make them feel like, wow, yeah, you, you saw me in that moment and I don't feel like you just want my money and.
You saw their feeds evolve and begin to show more of these people that they've expanded their networks to include that were experts that happened to be diverse. You saw the differences in the events that they participated in and that they chose to be a part of. You saw the differences. When holidays came up, how they were addressed, you would notice the differences if it traumatic event like last week.
Um, I guess it was a week and a half at this point ago happened with the COO, with the Capitol, you know, did they pause their content going out or did they just do business as usual? Did they acknowledge the collective trauma that everyone was going through or did they just. You know, give you the regular selfie that they would have given you anyway, on a Thursday the next day.
And so you saw what happened when some people took the time and the effort to do the work, and they shifted what they were doing. We had clients that literally had their best sales months ever for launch with making these changes, because some people are so afraid of it and. It's not something that has, you have to be afraid of, but it is something that you have to say, can I sleep at night if I don't.
Yeah. And so being able to see, you know, why you don't want to just. Put up a black face or just put up the keyboard with the black hand on it. You don't want to just do those things because that's harmful, but you also want to see where this needs to intersect with your values and your actions and how your business runs and how you are serving and supporting.
And then again, you're now, Hey, I met this person and they're so good at what they do. I want it to bring them in versus I had to bring this person in because I mean, they're just, I mean, they're, she's, she's an amazing woman and it's like, wait, you led with the color of her skin, not her expertise. Yeah.
And so, so it's, it is really stopping and pausing for a second. And I it's honestly, like with that particular example I just gave, I don't know that anyone else would bring a white person on and say, she's a great white woman. That wouldn't be what you would say. So why would I come on? And you say, she's a great, she's a great black woman.
What?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I, I feel like it's, uh, I know I've heard it. Uh, other people have said too, where it's like, If you have, uh, if you just grabbed diverse stock photos and slapped them up, it doesn't actually mean. That it's safer to work with that, that word safe and pills, people miss that.
And it's like, just because you have now, you know, insert black person here, that doesn't mean that a black person can actually be in your program. That doesn't mean that they can receive what they need. That does not mean that they can actually get the support that they need. Let's say we're speaking of a coach.
Can they bring their, their challenges? Can you respect and see where they're coming from? Are you just going to assume. Oh, I don't have any black people in my program because they can't afford it. Are you going to assume that all of their, their money challenges are based on, you know, Oh, you just can't make money or are you going to stop and say there's possibly some other underlying things here that I am just not equipped to be able to address.
This is above my pay grade. And I need to make sure that I can help you find somebody that is a better fit so that I am not purposefully causing harm. Yeah, absolutely. Am. I think that, uh, I think what is really hard in that work and I, you know, I can only like speak to my own experience is wanting it to be like, Oh, like it's just, you know, like, uh, everything's fixed overnight.
Like, and I get, you know, that would go with anything, right. It's like, Oh, I don't know. Like, Oh, it's going to take months. Like, even for this podcast, like, it's been a huge project to go back and transcribe all of the back episodes, all the new ones that come out, have them, and it's almost done. And it took a couple months longer than I was hoping, but it, it had to be approved.
It had to be an intentional project based on values based on. W wanting to be more inclusive and more, you know, accessible to people who learn differently and may have other, uh, you know, challenges and barriers to my podcast. But I couldn't, it couldn't just happen overnight. And, and even in like the ongoing work is the constant sitting with the constant discomfort of like, I'm probably going to be educated on something that I was like, maybe told differently or assumed differently.
Like for instance, for, for a long time, I had like the word women with the X everywhere on all my stuff. And then new dialogue and discourse. Cause obviously like our language and everything where it's always evolving. That was coming out. That was like, Hey, a lot of trans women, they would actually, they actually don't want like, just make it women.
Like it's, it's fine. And so in that education, I was like, okay, I'm going to switch it back. As I notice it on different pages or places, I'm going to switch it back. But I had that instant bodily hit that was like, What if somebody saw it in the interim and they were upset, like, what if I let someone down?
What if I caused harm? You know? And, and I will never know. I don't think that was the case. Like nobody said anything directly, but, but I had to, I had to get over it. I had to get over myself and my worry of like, You know, to say, okay, what if I did, if I did, I would rather, I would rather fix it now going forward than just dwell in it and be like, throw my hands up and be like, man.
Oh, well, I don't know. Well, because we're all on a constant learning journey. We're all learning. We're all unlearning. We're all evolving. And. I think a good example. And it's obviously not exactly the same, but I feel like it's a good way to lay it out. If you think about health, nutrition and, you know, diet, there was a point to where the, what is it?
The food pyramid used to tell you to eat a stick of butter a day, that it was good for you. And. Things were very heavy when it came to starches. And there were so many things. These are great for you. And now they're like, please don't ever eat these things. They're terrible. Well, and we're constantly figuring them out and we're also figuring out, Hey, this might be the quote unquote standard that we set to be able to have a baseline that most people can adhere to.
But some people have celiac. So you can't have gluten or some people are allergic to dairy, so you can't have that. Some people are allergic to mushrooms or they're allergic to nuts or insert thing here. You can't have this, or you just simply don't like it there's that too. Right. And so this being something that you have a way of doing things, but that doesn't work for everybody and you're learning how to do it better.
I think exercise is the same type of thing. When it comes to movement, it's like, you have to figure out what works for you. You have to figure out how to communicate this so that your needs can be met. And there are people that need to be willing to listen to that. And the fact that we are all walking contradictions in so many ways, that has to be respected too, because what got us here, won't get us there.
So just because it was good to do that thing before doesn't mean that that's always the way that it has to be. And it doesn't mean that it was wrong before you worked off the information and knowledge that you had did what you did best with what you had access to, but when you know better, you do better.
And so when you learn, if you spiral out into the self-loathing, that can happen from a place of, I didn't know, and I messed this up. All of us have places to grow and to evolve and to learn better and to do better. And you have to simply allow yourself the leeway to do so versus being so past focus that you can't figure out.
What does it look like to move forward? But most importantly, be in the present. Yeah. Yeah. That, that is, uh, That is really, I feel like where people get. So, so tripped up is like, especially in like the, you know, doing this work in the entrepreneurial space and everything where we have eyeballs on us, you know, all the time with social media and our content and everything is that yeah, that it's like hard to just.
Be in that present and not obsess over what are, what are people thinking, saying feeling about me and just being really honest and being like, this is me, this is what I'm learning. This is how I screwed up. I like, this is how I'm going to my actual action steps on, on doing better. I feel like that is very vulnerable, but also it's.
Uh, transformative. I feel like it's in a lot of ways, it's really important and should not be. Should not be overlooked or feared. Absolutely. Yes. Again, we're we all have mistakes to make because that's how we learn. You know, we, we make discoveries things that we take for granted, you know, electricity computers, these things didn't happen because they got it all right.
The first time. And even if they did. They don't look the way that they did years ago. I mean, I'm, I'm in my early forties and the computers I saw as a kid are not the computers that we're working on right now. They're very different. And so there is this space of needing to know that where you are, isn't where you want to stop.
And taking the time to say, I want to do better. So there are things that I need to learn. I need to be willing to listen because I think a huge part of it is to not talk, to ask the questions or to, to, you know, demonstrate the curiosity and to be silent and to listen and pay attention and to stay curious enough, she'd be willing to receive data from that.
That could be very uncomfortable. could put you in a place of feeling like I have to completely shift the way that I did this, the way that I thought about this, the way that I approached this and to not take it as a negative about who and how you are, that you are this person forever. You're a terrible human because you did this.
No, you are learning terrible is what happens when you know, better. And you still are like, Oh, I'm not doing that. I don't care. And I'm just not. And so seeing where it can be done differently, doing so to the benefit of someone else, because it may not actually have any benefit to you, but it's because it's the right thing to do.
And going with that and being willing to still stay open. As time goes forth. That's what you have to do because there's no way to be better in life. There's no way to be better in your business. There's no way to better serve your clients and to have better working relationships with your peers and the people that are working for you.
There's no better way to learn more about who it is that you really do enjoy working with. Who do you want to serve? How do you want to serve them? What do they need? From their own voices, not because you assume that you knew what it was and you were going to make that determination for them. There's no way to figure those things out without being willing to be open, to stay curious and to be gentle with yourself in the process.
Yeah. I like the comparison to technology because we know like, it, it will continue to evolve just like the online, digital space, like how, how and where we show up in market. Like there's always gonna be a new app. There's always gonna be a new thing, a new trend. And as you mentioned earlier, like if we can keep evolving and learning that we can do.
This other work. And I, it feels actually very freeing in a way to know that the work is never done. Like if you just apply that growth mindset that we do with life coaching and all of those other sectors, I feel like applying that to DEI and anti-racism work and just not as like a. Checking the boxes of like, Oh great.
I read all the top 10 books. I'm good to go. Like, let's do this. But like, I feel like there's, there's some like magical freedom and just embracing the fact that it's a journey that never ends and it's always improving. And cause to me, like hearing, hearing you say that, like, what it was bringing to mind for me was like, Oh good.
Then I don't like. I don't have to be so terrified of getting everything perfect with every post and every everything and overthinking it because when you just embrace the like imperfection and the constant journey of learning and evolving and being open, like you said, to listening and doing better, when you know better, it's kind of like, Oh, well, I can do that.
I do it with. S, you know, three years ago, I didn't know how to do an online webinar. Now I do. If I could figure that out, like we can figure this out. We can do hard things. Absolutely. All of that, all of that, because I feel like most of the hesitation or that like, you know, fight flight freeze or font type of thing that can come up, it really does come up from that fear of doing it wrong and what's going to happen.
And in my opinion, from. From my personal vantage point as a black woman and as a DEI coaching consultant, the problem is not when you get it wrong, the problem is what do you do next? And if it's nothing that doesn't work, if it is double down on the harm and the transgression, and try to explain your way out of it.
No, no, no. That's not what I meant. You misunderstood me. You don't understand. I do these things. I, I, I, that's where it goes wrong saying absolutely nothing. Taking no ownership. Not making amends and apologizing for the transgressions, not figuring out how to do better going forward, because you keep sticking that same foot in the mouth over and over and over.
That is where the problem comes. The challenge is never, when something doesn't go the way that you hope that you planned for it to go, the trouble comes up when you are not willing to acknowledge. This didn't play out the way that I thought it would if I need to apologize and make amends, because it involves someone else.
I will, I will do my own education and, and knowledge gathering to figure out what I did, why it landed, where it did ask questions in the proper context at the proper times, with a person that's willing. To be in conversation with you around it. Because I do think that there is a place of asking questions to someone that is willing to have these conversations, but not in the way of, you have to answer my questions.
I'm entitled to this response. I'm entitled to this answer. Yeah, that's what you don't want to do, but you, but you're asking because of context, you want to do your own learning, but if you don't want to assume that Google gave you everything that you needed, then sometimes it's like, I want to be in conversation because I want to know how you feel.
And then at that point it literally becomes a rinse and repeat, yeah, both fourth and try again. What do we do now? Babies? Don't say I'm going to walk, but you know what? I fell. This, this whole walking thing isn't for me, I'm just gonna stay on my cushy diaper on the floor, scoot around on the bud. I'm gonna crawl.
I'm gonna go with this. I'm not going to walk because I'm going to fall. And it's just too hard and I don't want to venture that. So I just won't do it. That's not how that works. They get up, they walk, they crawl, they run, they bump in this stuff. They fall over everything. Adults do it too. We're all still trying to figure it out as a slightly clumsy person, like raise my hands and say I do it too.
But. There has to be this desire to do and to be better. And none of these things happen. If you get stuck at this, didn't go the way that I wanted it to. And now I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. Then there's no, no real progress is being made at all. No, there's no progress there. And that's where I feel like people get stuck and I'm usually like, What is it about this that has made you feel as though stopping was an option?
Hm, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, that is a mic drop moment right there. I, yeah. And I feel like now, you know, post 2020. You either can embrace that. Stopping is not an option and progress has to be made, or you are overtly willing to say I'm causing harm. And I don't care. Silent complicity. Yep. Cause you can't.
No, no one can like. Pretend now there's no, no, no. We are beyond that. We are, we are. And this is where you have to simply figure out again, what impact do I cognizantly want to bring to the world? What do I hope to create? What do I plant seeds for? In hopes that these will be the physical representation of the legacy that I hope is left behind when I'm gone.
How do you do that? Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like this is a great place to talk about where people can learn more from you, because I will say that, you know, as you said, it's not okay to demand that somebody. Give you their time or their emotional labor to educate. But working with a DEI professional who like you, who has said, Hey, this is what I do.
I am willing when we enter this working arrangement, I'm willing to have these conversations. You are, you are putting yourself out there and making it available for people who do want to do this deep work who are ready to sit in the discomfort and make the change. And so I would love for you to talk a little bit about where people can find you and how they can work with you and all that good stuff.
Absolutely. So what you said there, I think is so important because there, you could be at any point in your journey and sometimes we, it's not always this direct linear path that goes forward. So sometimes you're going back or you took a side step, like things happen. And so I. I think it's important to have multiple ways for you to be able to get support that you are open to receiving for where you are.
So one of those things is being able to work with me one-on-one which you can learn about@ericacordae.com. Another one of those things is being a part of pause on the play, the community. Which is where people that are looking to be imperfect allies and to make shifts in their life and their businesses.
They're able to do that together and support each other. And to receive that support that you can find information about@pawsontheplay.com. And pause on the play.com. You'll also be able to learn more about the podcast. Pause on the play is where we have these conversations. We talk about where marketing and visibility is done through the lens of DEI.
It is myself and my business partner, India Jackson, or flaunt, your fire. And the podcast is a great way where if you're like, I'm not sure I'm ready. I don't even know where to start. Um, I still want to kind of take in content and kind of get my nerve up to be able to be in conversation with someone with this.
Um, again, the community gives you a place to do it with others, because I do think that part of it is knowing how you best take in information, how you best. Receive support because for some people it's, it's doing it with others. Some people it's, one-on-one others, it's in a group type of a format. And so, you know, some people like, can you just come in and do a workshop for our team, which those I love doing, because it gives us an opportunity to actually work with you where you are and for what you need.
Again, those are things that you can come on over and learn a little bit more@ericacordae.com. Reach out to me. And we can talk about that. But again, if you want one-on-one, if you're looking for group, if you're looking for workshops, if you need podcasts that are just kind of like, let me do this slightly passively, and there will be a course coming up soon.
So keep your eyes open for that. Those are like, let me do a little bit by myself, please. I'm promise. I'm coming. I'm on my way. There's that too, but there's multiple. Touch points that are going to help to get you where you need. And I work in a shame and blame free way. You will not receive that from me.
You have your own things that you'll have to work through with how you feel, but I am not there to shame you or make you feel bad because of what you didn't know or what you're currently working to do better at. I love that. That's, it's so helpful that you have so many different options as well for people.
And yeah, I feel like. It is something that is a, it is a worthwhile investment, uh, in the same, you know, whether it's time of listening to the podcast or money of working directly with you. Cause I think that we get so obsessed with, you know, ROI investments and whole business coaches and things like that.
But yeah, it really is something that I. The, the work that I've done, that I like put money and time into to like doing this work for myself. It has an impact that is so far beyond ROI that I, I feel like it cannot be emphasized enough that ha like how crucial it really, it really is. So I appreciate that you are doing the work.
I appreciate that you came to talk to my listeners cause I know they all. Want to do better and be more, you know, just equitable, inclusive. In their business. So I appreciate your time and your expertise. Thank you so much, Erica. Thank you so much, Erica.
